Second Thoughts on Sola Scriptura
October 9, 2010 § 110 Comments
My beliefs, through my transition from the generically Arminian church of my childhood to classical Reformed Presbyterianism, were marked by several significant developments in my beliefs, one certainly maintained its place at the bedrock of my entire theology. This is no surprise for despite the doctrinal differences of the some 20,000 to 30,000 denominations within Protestantism, there is perhaps one that underlies every last one of them and that is the doctrine of Sola Scriptura (Latin for “by Scripture alone”). What the doctrine means is rather self-explanatory given its translation. Simply put, the doctrine states that only that which is contained in the Scriptures or can be directly derived therefrom should be received with the certainty of infallibility. In other words, anything that is not in and of the Scriptures is necessarily the wisdom of men and therefore does not possess the infallibility of God’s inspiration. The consequence of this doctrine is that any idea that cannot be found in the Scriptures is immediately suspect at best and should probably be discarded. No matter what denominational affiliation a Protestant is aligned with, he maintains some form of Sola Scriptura for it is the bedrock of the whole experiment.
Sola Scriptura, of course, sounds like a doctrine that is so obviously true that to question it could only indicate a doubt in the infallible divine inspiration of Scripture. However, I assure you that the doubts I began to consider that finally led me to shed my belief in Sola Scriptura were only because of my firm conviction in the absolute infallible divine inspiration of Holy Scripture. I must also say that my beliefs that must replace Sola Scriptura are still being worked out in my mind and heart. I simply do not yet know precisely how I will articulate the alternative at this time. This is the collection of thoughts that led me to consider Sola Scriptura as itself a man-made doctrine that is internally inconsistent and ultimately leads to an ironic conclusion characterized by complete uncertainty.
The first and most obvious question that anyone should ask of Sola Scriptura is whether or not it abides by its own principle. Can the idea that the Scriptures alone are the only source of infallibly inspired truth be proven from Scripture alone? I don’t want to spend a great deal of time on that question but I should note that I have yet to be convinced of the affirmative answer. The Scriptures say many things about themselves, even that they are inspired by God and perfect, but I personally have not found a verse that asserts the singular and exclusive infallibility of Scripture. The statement “All Scripture is God-breathed…” does not imply that only Scripture is God-breathed any more than the statement “all limes are green” implies that only limes are green.
The rest of this essay of sorts will deal with the final “deal-breaker” for me and that is what I will call the “canon dilemma.” For those of you who may be unaware, a “canon” is simply a measure, a standard, and the canon of Scripture is merely the table of contents, the list of which books constitute the Bible as we know it. To put the “canon dilemma” succinctly, we are told in 2 Timothy 3:16 that “all Scripture is breathed out by God…” but ask yourself how it is that we know what counts as the “Scripture” to which this verse refers as being “breathed out by God.” 2 Timothy did not originally come to us already nestled between 1 Timothy and Titus as a part of a closed and complete anthology conveniently known as “Scripture” such that we could easily conclude that the “Scripture” of 2 Tim. 3:16 obviously refers to the other 65 books included. This is perhaps the biggest misconception that many Protestants have about the Bible, that since its beginning, the Church has always had a complete, definitive, and leather-bound collection of 66 books known as “Scripture” to which it could be quickly refer in the need of clarification or insight. Rather, at the time of St. Paul’s writing of 2 Timothy, not all the books of the New Testament had even been written yet let alone compiled into a definitive collection known as the “New Testament.” Therefore, any thoughtful person upon reading 2 Timothy in this light will ask two questions: (1) What is the “Scripture” to which 2 Tim. 3:16 refers as being “breathed out by God?” (2) By what standard can we even read 2 Timothy as a book of Holy Scripture in the first place? I’ll elaborate on each of these questions.
To restate the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, it is the idea that only that which is contained in Scripture can be received with certainty of infallible divine inspiration. But think about this. When you open up your Bible to the first few pages and you come to the table of contents, has it ever occurred to you that that list is not itself a part of Scripture? That list, otherwise known as the canon, cannot be found within any book of the Bible. For what ever reason, God did not see fit to reveal to us a chapter-and-verse table of contents of what books possess that criterion of God-breathed Scripture. Therefore, given the Sola Scriptura principle, it would seem that any attempt to declare which books count as Scripture and which books do not is necessarily an extra-biblical claim that would be deemed uninspired and fallible because we don’t have an inter-Scriptural canon. Now, as some of you know, this isn’t a new discovery for R.C. Sproul has long put forth the idea of the canon as a “fallible collection of infallible books.” But as much as I respect Sproul, this presents some serious problems for me.
Firstly, the “fallible collection of infallible books” idea subtly begs the question “How do you know that the books are infallible?” and opens up an epistemological mess. We Protestants often take the canon for granted in assuming that the reason that James or Romans is an inspired canonical book is “because it’s in the Bible.” Well, if the Bible as we know it is a “fallible collection” due to its organization by an extra-biblical council, then for a book to merely have a place within it does not necessarily entail that it is indeed inspired and infallible. A certainty of infallibility cannot rest upon that which is fallible. So, right off the bat, we are left with a gaping epistemological problem as to how we can know for certain the individual books’ infallibility. Now, if we were to follow the principles of Sola Scriptura we would assert that we can only maintain inspiration and infallibility as regards those tenets which are contained within Scripture or can be explicitly derived thenceforth. But, as stated previously, the collection of Scripture is not found within Scripture, which is why Sproul refered to it as a “fallible collection.” But frankly, even if Romans contained a list of what books counted as Scripture, we couldn’t use this book to determine its and the other included books’ infallible canonicity without already presupposing Romans’ infallible inspiration in the first place. This is the issue presented by the second question above. I can’t approach 2 Timothy to read that “all Scripture is God-breathed” until I am sure that 2 Timothy is even worthy of being read as Scripture in the first place. And if 2 Timothy’s place within the canon is merely a result of a fallible collection of an extra-biblical council, how can I know for certain that God did in fact breathe the words “all Scripture is God-breathed?” Therefore, on this point, I am nervously faced with what appears to be a logical dilemma for Sola Scriptura. On the one hand, it cannot put its assurance in the inspiration of the council that organized the canon, thereby rendering an infallible collection of infallible books, without violating its own principle; the canon must be a fallible collection. On the other hand, it is faced with the epistemological obstacle that one cannot know for certain a characteristic of a written text based upon what that text says about itself without already presupposing the text to be trustworthy or in this case, infallible. The resulting circular argument would go as follows:
- Me: “Hey, how do you know that the Bible is inspired by God?”
- Other guy: “Because 2 Tim. says that ‘All Scripture is God-breathed…’”
- Me: “Ok, but how do you know that 2 Tim. is a legitimate book of that Scripture?”
- Other guy: “Because it’s in the Bible.”
Do you see the circle? The other guy presupposes the inspiration of Scripture to argue for the inspiration of Scripture. Therefore, on this point, it seems to me that Sola Scriptura fails to offer us the very certainty requisite for adherence to its own principle.
Continuing this, a popular argument from Protestants when confronted by the fact that the collection that we now know as “the Bible” is the product of a church council is to say that the council merely “passively recognized” those books which all Christians had always known were Scripture. Aside from the fact that that is an historically flawed view, even if we assume the organization of the canon to be a “passive recognition” of those books, by what criterion where they universally recognized as the Word of God? If Sola Scriptura has always been the true doctrine of the Church, how did the early Christians who did not yet have a definitive and authoritative collection of what counted as “Scripture” practice this doctrine? If they were following Sola Scriptura, what was the intra-Scriptural standard from which they recognized the correct books of the Bible? It is important to note that the early Church received many letters from the Apostles and yet only a select few were ultimately considered as the inspired and infallible Words of God. Beyond that, there were other letters written by bishops after the Apostles that were commonly considered as a part of Scripture such as the Letters of St. Clement. Church history therefore presents two problems for me concerning Sola Scriptura. For its first three-hundred years, the Church functioned without any canonical collection, fallible or otherwise, so if Sola Scriptura is the true Biblical standard for interpretation, etc., how did the Church practice this doctrine during this period? Secondly, for the reasons previously stated, the principles of Sola Scriptura would have prevented them from having a foundation on which to even consider certain books as infallibly inspired just as it does to us today.
Now this question of the certainty of Scripture is not one that has been ignored by the various Reformed confessions. The language of the Westminster Confession states that:
“…our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.”
So, our assurance of Scripture’s infallibility rests upon an inward work of the Holy Spirit’s witness that takes place within our hearts that testifies to the proper and true books of Scripture, the true canon. I know I am treading upon nervous ground here, but given the principle of Sola Scriptura, how is a Spiritual inward working in our hearts an any more appropriate foundation on which to place canonical certainty than a Spiritual inward working in the Church? If you have Catholics on one side that argue that our certainty of Scripture is based on the inward working and guidance of the Holy Spirit in the magisterium that organized the canon and Protestants on the other that argue that our assurance is based on the Holy Spirit’s inward working in the hearts of believers, the difference does not seem to be Sola Scriptura. Rather, the difference is only in regards to the object on which assurance rests which in both cases is extra-biblical and therefore fails as an adequate foundation of certainty within Sola Scriptura. In fact, it seems that all one has to do to distinguish the Catholic position from the Protestant is to take that phrase from the Confession and replace “our hearts” with “the Church.”
I encountered this in a discussion with a blog friend of mine who once wrote a post critiquing the Catholic position on this issue and defending Sola Scriptura. In it, he began by stating “the Word of God has the authority to interpret itself.” Ok, even though this sounds right, I’ve already shown some philosophical problems with that statement in its begging of the question but in the next sentences he wrote as if directly proceeding from his first statement that “the Spirit indwelling a believer then opens the eyes of the faithful, through their faith and prayer, to interpret the Word correctly.” That may be in accordance with the Westminster Confession, but how is this an example of the Word of God interpreting itself? I challenged him on this again claiming that the only difference between his second statement and the Roman position he was attacking was the use of the words “a believer” rather than “the Church.” In terms of Sola Scriptura, there is no principled difference between these two statements. My basic problem is that an assurance based upon an inward working of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s heart seems no more in accordance with Sola Scriptura than a Spirit-induced testimony in the Church. Sola Scriptura may have a consistent basis for certainty in the canon, but we have to play by the rules and merely replacing the work of the Spirit in the Church with a work of the Spirit in our hearts as a foundation of certainty is not adhering to it. Given the principle of Sola Scriptura, our certainty of the canon must rest upon none other than an explicit or necessarily consequential warrant from Scripture itself. Unfortunately, that option seems circular for the reasons above.
Related to this is my next concern, which is that of the binding of the conscience. Sola Scriptura maintains that only that which is contained in Scripture can bind the consciences of men. Well, since the list which properly constitutes which books belong in Scripture is not contained within Scripture itself and the canon was fallibly organized by the extra-biblical Synod of Hippo, was that council violating the consciences of believers by authoritatively establishing a canon outside of Scripture? Moreover, logically speaking, could someone as a Protestant decide for himself that, say, James isn’t a valid part of the canon? As opposed as he would be, on what grounds, beside any denominational vows he had taken, could his conscience be bound? For no where in Scripture does it state that James is Scriptural except within James itself and if he already believed that James was invalid, nothing from within that book could convince him otherwise. As far-fetched as this example seems, Martin Luther himself did this very thing with not only James, but Jude and Revelation as well. Even if we accept what I understand to be Calvin’s understanding, that true Christians “know the voice of the Shepherd” which is the Scriptures, this doesn’t resolve the issue of someone deciding that James or Esther is not canonical and inspired. What would the argument against them be: “The majority of Christians hear, and have always heard, the Words of God in Esther, therefore you should too?” Again, the basis of the certainty in the inspiration and canonicity of any book is not founded upon Scripture alone. Again, if the canon is a “fallible collection” then it seems totally plausible that someone might come to object to a certain book’s place within it for whatever reason and Sola Scriptura would have no way of binding his conscience against his beliefs. Sola Scriptura again seems to implode on itself. If only that which is contained in Scripture can rightly bind the consciences of men, it seems as though you have to first improperly bind consciences in order to possess an established and organized canon with which you can then go out and properly bind consciences.
Next, is a brief offshoot of this dilemma and it concerns interpretation. Keith A. Mathison once expressed in an article in Modern Reformation a different concept stating that “All appeals to Scripture are appeals to interpretations of Scripture.” However, when I first read it, I obviously agreed, but as I pondered it more and more, I was rather surprised to hear that so confidently said by a Protestant. To this day, I catch myself wondering, “Did he realize what he was actually saying?” As far as I am concerned, this has devastating implications for Sola Scriptura. Firstly, there’s the simple title. If all appeals to Scripture are appeals to interpretations of Scripture, then a doctrine that translates “Scripture Alone” somewhat looses its essential quality. Consider this argument:
- All appeals to Scripture are appeals to interpretations of Scripture.
- Interpretations are by definition external and separate from that which they interpret.
- Sola Scriptura maintains that any claim external to Scripture itself is necessarily uninspired and therefore fallible.
- Therefore, all appeals to Scripture are fallible.
This is no surprise; everyone obviously holds this to be true whether he believes in Sola Scriptura or not. But in the context of my other concerns, the lack of certainty seems to be stacking up. First, Sola Scriptura seems to fail to give us a certainty with regards to the very canon of Scripture. If we now are forced to assert the absolute fallibility of all interpretations of this fallible collection of what we are somehow assured to be infallible books, it seems as though we are rapidly descending into a hermeneutical cacophony in which every man believes what is right in his own eyes whether the “man” is a literal individual or figurative as a denomination comprised thereof. Coincidentally enough, that’s exactly what has appeared to have happened as I survey the impossibly complex landscape of contemporary Protestantism. It seems readily apparent that Luther’s hope that the supposedly “plain” words of Scripture would so obvious as for there to be little doubt of orthodoxy was mistaken.
All in all, I have increasingly come to view Sola Scriptura as one of the many man-made philosophical tenets that is too absolute to be practically tenable. It leaves many loose ends that have to be accounted for and the ways in which this accounting is gone about are unsatisfactory for me. It is perhaps the ultimate irony that to maintain a doctrine which states that only that which is contained in Scripture is infallibly inspired and authoritative requires a person to deny that we can definitely know with a certainty of infallibility what “Scripture” is in the first place.
I have removed the paragraph in which I offered up a half-baked, tentative theory I have of my alternative. If you recall the first paragraph, I have still not worked out thoroughly the belief that will replace Sola Scriptura. Too much attention was being directed towards concluding paragraph and I want my objections to be criticized if you all think they need to be.
I encourage you all to comment and object to any point in here and correct any flawed reasoning.

I realize this only touches on one aspect of your post but, the argument of the infallibility of Scripture has always seemed to miss the mark for me. The same goes for apologists (well-intentioned, I might add) who try and prove the existence of God. Why do people continue to presume that human logic can be applied to infinite concepts? Your last paragraph is a good summary. Just like the existence of God, it takes believing in God and that His Word is true, to make sense of God and His Word. Not really logical by human standards, but then, as Luther so poignantly states, “reason is the devil’s greatest whore”. Well done, Caleb.
Thanks for the comment, Jenny.
I know exactly what you mean but by “infallible” I simply meant “true.” I specifically avoided the term “inerrant” for I think that to be a misnomer that more asserts that the Bible is literally true (which is not the true that it was intended to be). Consequently, my “argument” for the infallibility of Scripture is as simple as reading 2 Tim. 3:16 and deducing that anything that is really breathed by God is necessarily true. But again, “true” is simply a way better adjective than infallible as you implied.
I hope you know that I didn’t mean that your argument missed the mark. I think your “argument” is completely sufficient and all that is necessary to reassure Believers. But that’s just it, why focus on trying to prove infallibility to ears that do not want to hear? I agree with you. Just wanted to clarify.
Quick note: It’s always fun to throw II Thes. 2:15 into any conversation about Sola Scriptura. Try it sometime.
Jenny,
I think that Caleb is actually saying quite a bit more than “we shouldn’t try to argue the infallibility of the Scriptures with those who don’t believe it already.” He said that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura itself is man-made and inconsistent (with the implication that it should be rejected altogether). Also, I’m sure that, in context, Luther is making some really great point with that quote, but out of context it sounds pretty un-Christian and fideistic. If we throw out reason, and having faith means “I believe it just because,” we don’t have much of a religion left. If Caleb’s concerns are legitimate, then it means there’s a problem with the doctrine itself, not just with trying to persuade others of it.
Caleb,
One initial observation: I also think it’s important to distinguish between Calvin’s description (or the WCF’s, for that matter) of the Holy Spirit speaking to the believer through Scripture, on the one hand, and a more objective, doctrinal position of biblical infallibility on the other. I think the former is more of a pastoral explanation intended to explain how someone can trust that God is speaking to him through the written Word, but not necessarily to “prove” that the Bible is infallible or that Sola Scriptura is true. In other words, the general idea that Scripture is or could be infallible (and whichever books might be included under that heading) is philosophically prior to the question of “How can I trust that God is speaking to me when I read the Bible?”
Now to the point: Given the description you give of Sola Scriptura, your reasoning is pretty flawless as far as I can tell. Your observation about Mathison’s quote was spot on. It does raise the question: What’s the point of having an infallible source if all interpretations of it (and all we have are interpretations) are fallible? Most articulations of the doctrine are terribly problematic and riddled with inconsistencies. I’d be interested, though, to hear your thoughts on what it might look like when your above concerns are applied to various understandings of Sola Scriptura. Obviously, the strongest (and most misguided) form is what has been ridiculed as “Solo Scriptura”: the idea that I need no other authority than my Bible and my own subjective interpretation. There are weaker senses of the term, however, including the idea that the church cannot require anyone to believe anything that is not contained in Scripture (this is the position of the 39 Articles). This definition still paints a contrast with the RC church, for example, but it attempts to avoid some of the convoluted philosophical language often employed by other articulations. There are also definitions that would fall somewhere in between, I imagine. Richard Hooker’s (oft-abused) “three-legged stool” of Scripture, reason, and tradition might be helpful here, because it clearly gives place to authorities in addition to Scripture and provides a more robust approach to the establishment of doctrine. The abuse comes in when people forget that the “legs” of the stool are hierarchical (in the order I just listed).
I’m eager to hear more of your thoughts.
Caleb,
Great analysis!
You’ve hit upon the key questions, the same ones I asked myself when I was a Baptist (though you have also explored them with greater understanding than I did during that time in my life of faith).
I’m recommending this post to my friends. God bless you in your discernment.
Devin
P.S. One thing to keep in mind is that the North Africa regional councils’ canons confirmed the twenty-seven book NT which all Christians accept, but their OT included the seven deuterocanonicals accepted by the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches. (And note that the Pope confirmed the decrees of these councils including the canon.) It adds a further wrinkle: did they somehow get the NT right but the OT wrong? On what basis could someone claim that?
Finally, note that the Eastern Orthodox have 75 books in their Bible: In addition to the seven deuteros they add 3 & 4 Maccabees. So even though the Catholic and Orthodox Churches were united in the first millennium, their (OT) canons ended up being slightly different.
Devin,
Thank you for leading me to this article!
One note: The EO canon discrepancy is even more problematic in light of the fact the EO held a major Council in 1672 to address Protestantism (the EO version of Trent) and was signed by all 5 EO Patriarchs. In that Council (the “Confession of Dositheos”), the EO were basically copying from Trent, and one of the teachings was embracing the SAME canon of Scripture as Catholics. The problem is, the EO have not remained consistent on this, and have espoused various canons from then on (not just 3&4 Macc) – and one of the most powerful and famous Patriarchs of Moscow wrote a Russian Orthodox catechism a century or so ago in which he said the Deutero-Canonical books are not part of the canon.
You beat me to the punch!
Alas, there is a pretty good summation of the controversies regarding various books of the bible here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon
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I will pray for you as you discern. The good thing about God is that being omnipotent, He can handle the hardest-hitting questions we send toward Him.
A Jewish friend and I were discussing the relationship of the Talmud and the Torah, and perhaps you can draw something from this. If not, just ignore it.
But she said it’s like having two parents. The Torah gives a law, and the Talmud tells you what it means; it’s the same as when my husband tells my daughter, “Go clean your room,” and she comes to me for clarification, and I say, “Put your books back on the bookshelf, make your bed, and put away your clean laundry.”
We’re human beings. Sometimes we get confused, and while God does want us to dig deeply into the scriptures to achieve our own relationship with Him, I also believe He doesn’t want us to do it alone. We are social creatures; God can use that natural inclination to bring us closer to Him.
I believe Scripture is one “parent” of our faith, and then we also need something standing outside that faith to play the other parent, the supportive and interpretive parent. “Mom, what does Dad mean when he says to forgive my neighbor seventy times seven times?” “Mom, what does Dad mean when he says that the work of God is to believe in the one He sent?”
The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church would assert that the second parent is sacred tradition; the Westminster confession you cited would say the internal workings of the Holy Spirit are that second parent. There are other answers too. But whatever the mechanism, it seems our souls do in fact need that second parent standing alongside the first to clarify and interpret what is stated in the scriptures themselves.
I’ll pray for God to lead you to the understanding He wishes you to have.
This is a great post. I will have to reread it, at least once, probably more.
Just this weekend I was in a class and we studied this a bit. The instructor (he is a doctoral student at Duke, and a devout RC) told us a story regarding Luther. Apparently, in his early writings, he referred to and commented on the 7 books in contention from the OT, but it was in his dialogue/argument with Eck (Ek? Ech? I am not sure) in which he changed his opinion because 2 Maccabees 12 did not support his theory of purgatory. I have not researched the instructor’s comments at all, I just offer them as something perhaps relating to your argument. And hopefully I have remembered the details correctly!
It is simply a fact that we do not have our canon of Sacred Scripture without our Sacred Tradition.
Indeed, and when it was pointed out to Martin Luther that James denounced justification by faith alone, he denounced James as an “epistle of straw”. He meant to strip a number of books from his canon, yet Huldrych Zwingli appealed to him not to do so.
I’ve been thinking about the Deutro-canonical books and Sola Scriptura, sort of a corollary to Caleb’s point: what standing (authority) did Luther have to reject these books that, to loosely quote the translator’s preface of the 1611 KJV, “have always been part of the collection of Scripture”. There is no Sola Scriptura position to justify this that I’m aware of. I believe he argued that they weren’t referenced (enough?) by the NT authors, but biblical-historical criticism in the mid 16th century wasn’t the same as today – and there’s reason today to fault his argument on this (changeable?) ground.
Tom,
I think that the main two arguments Luther made for rejecting the seven deuterocanonicals of the Old Testament were that 1) they were not in the Hebrew Bible and 2) they were not universally attested to in the early centuries of the Church (same with James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation in the NT).
One interesting counter to his first argument is that, in the 20th century, all of the seven deuterocanonicals were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and many (all?) were found in Hebrew.
Caleb, it’s evident you have thought through this issue carefully. I wish I could interact more fully with your post, but a few thoughts and questions by way of response will have to suffice.
First, the questions of authority and revelation are overlapping, but I would suggest, should remain distinct. I still question whether sola scriptura necessarily rejects a proper place for the authority of the church (notwithstanding your very able internal critique). I wonder if it isn’t more about the proper relationship between the authority of Scripture and the authority of the church. This concern obviously goes to Stewart’s point about hierarchy. And isn’t that a different question than, “Does the Scripture identify itself?” It seems to me that the historical concern of Sola Scriptura was, “Does the church have a responsibility to submit to Scripture, or not?” Likewise there are questions of revelation. Should we expect God’s word to continue to be revealed in the church in addition to and/or independent of the Scripture?
Second, I have questions about infallibility. It seems to me infallibility is something that necessarily can belong only to the Creator and not to creatures. Do you agree? How does the Creator/creature distinction factor into your analysis of sola scriptura and the epistemological concerns you raise. Whatever is truly God’s word must be infallible. But won’t our interpretation of it necessarily be subject to fallibility? Similarly, God may infallibly preserve His word, but I guess I continue to agree with Mathison that our identification of it is subject to fallibility.
Or to respond to Stewart’s discussion above concerning Mathison, the point of having an infallible source of interpretations if all interpretations are fallible is that the source is infallible according to the nature of the One who spoke; the interpretations can only be fallible according to the nature of those who interpret. Could not the point be an inappropriate seeking to cross the divide between creature and Creator in the quest for certainty? Must we insist on infallible human interpretations in order to know truly? Is it not sufficient that God infallibly interprets and then works to reveal? Or, perhaps to put it another way, how can I be certain that there is such a thing as apostolic succession or the keys of the kingdom?
Third, in response to your rejection of sola scriptura, I guess I’m left to ask: can we receive “with the certainty of infallibility” the Council of Hippo’s judgment concerning what is Scripture?
Caleb, thanks again for the post. It has obviously been very thought-provoking for me. As you know, this is an issue that I have thought about and continue to think about quite a bit.
Pastor Shawn,
Thanks for your comment! I am intending on writing a follow up post that will attempt to clarify and address the insights of you and others. I have already realized that the infallibility portion of my post is definitely in need of some clarity and I will be working on that shortly.
Thanks again,
Caleb
It seems to me that the historical concern of Sola Scriptura was, “Does the church have a responsibility to submit to Scripture, or not?” Likewise there are questions of revelation. Should we expect God’s word to continue to be revealed in the church in addition to and/or independent of the Scripture?
I don’t think this is quite the issue. The Catholic church never claimed it didn’t have a responsibility to submit to Scripture. The issue was whose interpretation of it did the church need to submit to? Did Luther have the right to use his reading of scripture to judge the church?
As far as God’s word continuing to be revealed goes. The Catholic answer is Yes and No. Jesus is God’s final word. There will be no truly new revelation that does not flow from what Jesus brought to us through the incarnation.
However, God’s truth is still being unpacked. New inferences and deeper understandings are always possible. These can never simply contradict what was believed before. The true gospel of Christ has existed on the earth in every generation since Pentecost. It does not get lost and rediscovered but it does grow and progress. God has given us the dignity of being able to constantly discover more about Him.
Indeed, for if it weren’t for the error of Arius, would we have as firm a grasp on the nature of the Trinity? The same applies to Nestorius, and the nature of Mary. Of course, bonus points to whoever can link the Council of Ephesus and Martin Luther.
“It seems to me infallibility is something that necessarily can belong only to the Creator and not to creatures.”
Surely the Creator can extend this infallibility to the creatures if He so chooses? When we’re talking about God, we really should avoid phrases like “cannot” altogether. He’s God. He can do whatever he pleases.
God can give the quality of Infallibility to whatever He wants. The question is not whether it’s possible, it’s whether it happened.
As for the ranking of authorities i.e. Scripture>Reason>Tradition: the ranking itself implies the possibility of conflict.
But surely, if Scripture is True, and if Reason is True, then they act in concert. Scripture may (and indeed does) contain knowledge that cannot be arrived at by Reason alone and separate from Scripture, but if anything contained within Scripture contradicts Reason, we’ve got a rather large problem.
Similarly with Tradition (as opposed to “t”radition), if you hold to the idea that God Guides the Church: there may be (and, I would say, is) knowledge that can be arrived at from Tradition united with Scripture that could not be arrived at from Scripture alone, but there could be no conflicts. And indeed, there are no conflicts, though I imagine that many here would disagree. (Arguing that may best be left to another time however.)
Note here that I am referring to perfect Reason, obviously humans can make mistakes in our attempt to use it. But that, again, is a topic for another time.
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Caleb,
Great article. Fr Brian Harrison is a convert, and wrote a brilliant article against Sola Scriptura in a very basic but solid logical syllogism. Here is the essence of it:
1. The Reformers asserted Proposition A: “All revealed truth is to be found in the inspired Scriptures.” However, this is quite useless unless we know which books are meant by the “inspired Scriptures.” After all, many different sects and religions have many different books, which they call “inspired Scriptures.”
2. The theory we are considering, when it talks of “inspired Scriptures,” means in fact those 66 books, which are bound and published in Protestant Bibles.
3. The precise statement of the theory we are examining thus becomes Proposition B: “All revealed truth is to be found in the 66 books.”
4. It is a fact that nowhere in the 66 books themselves can we find any statements telling us which books make up the entire corpus of inspired Scripture. There is no complete list of inspired books anywhere within their own pages, nor can such a list be compiled by putting isolated verses together.
5. It follows that Proposition B—the very foundation of all Protestant Christianity—is neither found in Scripture nor can be deduced from Scripture in any way. In short, we must affirm Proposition C: “Proposition B is an addition to the 66 books. ”
6. It follows immediately from the truth of Proposition C that Proposition B cannot itself be revealed truth. To assert that it is would involve a self-contradictory statement: “All revealed truth is to be found in the 66 books, but this revealed truth itself is not found there.”
May I suggest some others, highlighting the points you made:
This examines the flaw in appealing to 2 Timothy 3:16f
and
This explains why Sola-Scriptura is self-refuting by definition.
I guess religion has to be complicated for complicated people! All that rhetoric and logic doesn’t make a darned bit of difference on your death bed! Why make an academic argument? If one can be argued into something, they can just as easily be argued out of it. Instead of wracking your brains, try paying some attention to Christ in prayer. He said that one must become like a little child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So, I say to you, both grow up and grow down!
An interesting comment from someone who identifies herself as a “Reverend Doctor”.
“But, after all, we cannot place our chief reliance on philosophy as an instrument in the conversion of Protestants. Philosophy is too indirect and too slow in its operations to meet their wants. They are too far gone, too restless, too impatient, too averse to calm reflection and continuous thought, to listen to us while we set the true philosophy before them, or to submit to the labor absolutely requisite to comprehend and appreciate profound philosophical science. An age of balloons, steam-cars, and lightning telegraphs is not exactly the age for philosophers. Moreover, Protestant perversity would find in the necessity of the long and patient thought, and close and subtile reasoning, demanded by philosophy, an objection to our religion itself. Your religion, they would say, if true, is intended for all mankind, and therefore should be with in the reach of every capacity. The thought and reasoning necessary to create or understand the philosophy you insist upon transcend the capacity of all but the gifted few, and therefore, if necessary to establish your religion, prove that your religion is not true. We might, indeed, reply, that the thought and reasoning objected to are necessary to refute the errors of Protestants, not simply to establish our religion ; but that would amount to nothing in practice. The nature of the Protestant is to devise the most subtile errors in his power, and to find an objection to our religion in the very labor he makes necessary for their refutation.”
-Orestes Brownson, “Protestantism- in a nutshell”
http://www.orestesbrownson.com/330.html
Well Victoria
I have to say that your comment is a copout. One should always pray to God but should we not also obey him and follow him. Is God a father? Does a good father lead his kids into kaos, anarchy, uncertainty? Its easy to say just pray but hard to follow christ, but where the master is there will be his servant. Israel was the holder of Gods truth and was called as a older brother to set an examble for the rest of gods children (us gentiles) and to be a light to the world. They were to bring the world to true worship of “The one and only god”. If we draw a line with israel as the beggining , if we keep going straight we hit—-Jesus/Church. Just like moses set up 12 overseers and 70 elder, so Jesus did the same. Jesus was setting up the kingdom on earth with a similar structure as the old testament. Its not a free for all, just like as a father i keep order in my household, so does god do with his. Jesus set up the church as light upon a mountain so that the truth can always be located for all generations. If it cant be objectively located , the we live our live and die on our death bed saying ” i hope im right” . What good is that , if i cant be for sure of the truth , then theres no reason to believe in God, for all i know i could be wrong, thats a horrble way to live. Jesus clearly setup the church, why? just to get believers for the first century, then it didnt matter? no to be the pillar of truth, by our own power? No by the power and gift of God. The fact that the church cant lie in matters of faith and morals isnt to big of a thing to believe. Throughout the old testament and new testament god uses evil and fallible people to communicate his truth witch is infallible. So if christ built the church and died for her,and if gods own words says to obey the church which is his body , should we not follow and obey christ? when paul persecuted the church, it was a visible body of people with authority , with one faith, one baptism. The church is a safe guard to guide gods children, imagine if your child was with some guy but you couldnt know for sure of anything about him, wether he was a serial killer or a saint that would drive you crazy, God as a good father guides his children in truth.
I found this interesting ” Mormons thinks the gospel was really discovered by Joseph smith, islam thinks it was discovered by Mohhamed , protestant think it was discovered by martin luther”
The bible tells us to keep away from heresy because everything that is not true is from the devil, the fathers of lies. The church from the time of the apostles have defended christ and the truth ever since (trinity, christ divinity, ext). To be sepeartaed from the church which is christ body is to be seperated from christ.
Especially the eucharist, what a awesome lord who is the SOURCE OF LIFE, would give us himself totally like a bridegroom gives himself to his bride, thats why jesus can say anyone who eats this bread which is my body will live forever. The tree of life in the garden of genesis is now made available to us!! Glory to God in the highest!!
“If there be any thing constant in Protestantism, it is undoubtedly the substitution of private judgment for public and lawful authority. This is always found in union with it, and is, properly speaking, its fundamental principle; it is the only point of contact among the various Protestant sects, –the basis of their mutual resemblance. It is very remarkable that this exists, for the most part, unintentionally, and sometimes against their express wishes.”
-James Balmer, “European civilization: Protestantism and Catholicity compared in their effects on the civilization of Europe”
http://www.archive.org/stream/europeanciviliza00balmuoft#page/n27/mode/2up
Caleb,The original KJV bible printed in 1611 had 73 books in it,not 66. It had in it the 7 books taken out in the early 1800′s by one of the American Bible societies circa 1829-1850.You can find an original copy of the KJV Bible in a museum in Chicago. I’m sorry I can’t remember the name of the place. A good book to reference is, Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger, by Gary Machuta. The bible teaches in 1Tim3:15 …Paul says; But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God,which is the church of the living God,the pillar and foundation of truth. Notice is says the church is the foundation of truth. It existed before the bible was compiled. Early Christians for over three hundred years had no canon of scripture but they had the church Jesus founded, the Catholic Church ,which was first mentioned by St.Ignatius of Antioch in 105A.D. on his way to martyrdom in the Coliseum.God Bless you. Great article.
Daniel, this is an interesting point. If one accepts the value of Tradition, then the chain goes this way:
Jesus –> Church –> Bible
(Jesus founded the Church, which in time gave us the Bible)
Sola scriptura removes that center piece. Yet Jesus never gave us the Bible nor even asked His disciples to write down a single word during His public ministry. (There’s a command in Revelation to write down the visions.)
So the chain then becomes:
Jesus –> ??? –> Bible
If three councils in the late 300s and early 400s came together and decided on a canon…did these councils have authority?
If they did not, then we have no reason to giver their work any more credit than Martin Luther’s wishes to rid the Bible of the book of James.
If they did, then where did this come from? Did Christ not leave us a Church with a special teaching authority as we see from the primacy of Peter and the Council of Jerusalem seen in Acts 1? Do we not have books that talk about the qualifications of bishop? Did Christ not leave us with Apostles with the authority to forgive sins?
What visible Church today holds a distinct teaching authority?
Regardless of these questions, when we realize the shaky ground Sola Scriptura rests on, it is time to look in-depth at the Early Church and see what they looked like and see if that helps us in the dilemmas we see today.
we are told in 2 Timothy 3:16 that “all Scripture is breathed out by God…”
..however the Greek words translate as ” all writing (graphe) is God-breathed” . To translate as “Scripture” puts an extra dimension on the “graphe” which is not there, since we mean “Holy Writngs” when we use the word ‘scripture’. Later on, the same letter refers to “..holy writing..” but this distinction is not in 3:16..
So to put the only reference to ‘inspired’ writing for the Bible on 3:16 is a very dubious argument.
You state: “Simply put, the doctrine states that only that which is contained in the Scriptures or can be directly derived therefrom should be received with the certainty of infallibility. ”
That’s not the understanding of sola Scriptura that I know and believe, coming from an orthodox Lutheran perspective.
You’ve conflated a faulty understanding of sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) with the doctrine of the infallibility of Scripture, and with a sprinkling of Roman-speak: “receiving … infallibility.”
Here’s proof of your faulty definition of sola Scriptura: Apostolic preaching prior to the writing of Scripture. Not infallible? According to what would such preaching have been measured? Plenty o’ Bible verses to tell you that: the Old Testament Scriptures and the message of Christ. How about a contemporary example: contemporary preaching that is faithful to the Scripture? You bet.
Many “protestants” (Lutherans are actually the first “Protestants” and the first “Evangelicals”) today work with a wrong view of sola Scriptura. The correct view is that all teaching must measure up to Scripture, that the Bible alone is the final and highest authority in the Christian faith. Not popes, not councils, not TV preachers. All teachings and teachers must be measured up against this sure and faithful and final authority.
I’m sorry you’ve heard and believed the wrong view about sola Scriptura. You really should check out the Lutherans before you swim the Tiber.
Robert at bioethike.com
Robert:
I think my brain must be working very slowly this morning because for the life of me I can’t tell the difference between your “correct” view of Sola Scriptura and Caleb’s “wrong” view.
Mark Foster, it’s not just you. Aside from Robert putting it in different terms, he and Caleb appear to be working from the same definition of Sola Scriptura.
I had to deal with this question in my past as well. When i went back to the drawing board what i found was there was only one church,one faith,one baptism as the NT says. When studying the early church when the apostles were still alive ,one of the apostles deciples called the church Catholic(for the promise from god to abraham and david is that the blessing would be for all, universal which is the definition of catholic). In the first century the christians were considered cannibals and the heritics were known because they “would not confess that the eucharist is the body and blood of our lord.As far as the Cannon goes it was the Catholic church whpo wrote it( The apostles were alive when then name of the church was called catholic) it was the Catholic church that preserved the scriptures, copied them from one generation to another and protected them with her life.It was the church that put them into the common language and spread them to the faithfull to read (despite lies that say they withheld it-False). It was the church that determined the Old testament and New testament cannon. If you study history you will see that there has always been one cannon, the so called deutero’s were never added, they were there always and it was years after martin luther that they were slowly removed. So why have we just trusted this human tradition from our parents and friends that the catholic church is bad? If her claims are true , shouldnt we follow our Lord who founded it, for he only has one body. Chrsit didnt say the church is his soul a unseen thing, but a Body a visible entity that every person in every generation can see and find. So what authority does the church have to declare the cannon? The authority from god. the reformation reminds me of when the Ten tribes broke from judah and set up different places of worship but eventually came back to faithfull tribes. I wish for all christians to come back with me home, for it isnt the popes church but christ’s church and the Pope(father Is22:15) is just the prime minister doing his best to feed gods flock as a shepard does(its not easy, were all sinners). If we love scripture we should love the one who gave it to us, the catholic church.
email me with any questions
Too get the best treatment of the cannon buy 1) why catholics bibles are bigger 2) where we got the bible are debt to the catholic church
hope this helps
Caleb, you are so smart. You have thought it through and basically got it right. But remember there was no such thing as Protestantism until five hundred years ago. The Catholic Church existed for 1500 years before any Protestant churchcame into being. If you were going to church in, let’s say, October of 716, what church would you have been a part of? So God had it right until Luther came along and had to change Christian doctrine? The early Church was the Catholic Church.
Then end of this post is most revealing. I would venture to say that you have yet to come to the end of your journey. This is simply the beginning.
At the moment, you continue to reject the motion of an infallible Church yet you accept the “infallible” declaration of the canon produced by the same and reference the Orthodox Church in doing so. Keeping this in mind I can only conclude that your argument for rejecting the infallibilty of the Church is very close to being refuted as you accurately recognized that it is the Holy Spirit Who makes the Church infallible.
Ponder these questions:
If the Holy Spirit can preside over various Church councils in order to produce an infallible canon, which Church is the recipient of that privilege?
If there is such a privilege would it not be in the ever unchanging way of God to remain united with that Mystical Body, of which He is the Head, “to the end of days?”
If the Church that proclamied the infallbile canon is not herself infallible, then how can one hae the assurance that the canon it ruled is indeed infallible?
[...] Second Thoughts on Sola Scriptura « genureflection. (H/T The Sacred [...]
Hi Caleb,
Interesting piece. I have some questions for clarity’s sake.
What important protestant works on sola scriptura have you read and wrestled with during your studies?
Are you aware of the spurious nature of the 30,000 protestant denominations claim? See a response to this claim at the following web site:
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2218
After pointing out the “philosophical” problems with sola scriptura, and seeing how the lack of certainty in this position gradually increases as one probes deeper, how can you simply claim to have arrived at certainty with the following approach:
“I recognize the canon as one of the “keys of the Kingdom” that Christ gave to the Apostles and the subsequent bishops.”
Do you truly find no “philosophical problems” with this single sentence, for starters?
Jorge,
Thanks for the comment. I have read and listened to countless apologies for Sola Scriptura and couldn’t tell you a select few.
I was not aware of the flawed nature of the “30,000″ claim. To be honest, I had no idea that this post would be so widely read and commented on so I didn’t put a lot of research into that particular claim. Of course, the number is rather irrelevant to my point.
Regarding your use of a “tu quoque”, I understand that argument but it is due to my mistake of saying anything about a solution to the problems of Sola Scriptura. As you’ll read in my introduction, I am still working through the substitute belief and therefore, should have ended the article with the objections. I have removed that paragraph and inserted this explanation so that all attention can be focused on my actual objections. But you may have a valid argument against the conclusion that I originally wrote.
[...] Barber calls attention to a post in which the author notes some of the immediate problems with solo/sola scriptura, namely the index of books. When you open up your Bible to the first few [...]
As an Orthodox person, I would make a few observations.
You wrote: “In fact, it seems that all one has to do to distinguish the Catholic position from the Protestant is to take that phrase from the Confession and replace “our hearts” with ‘the Church.’”
First, I think that the difference centers on how we think of authority. The Orthodox understanding of Councils is not that of bishops gathered in smoke filled rooms and coming out with decress which are then imposed on the Church. Rather, for a Council to be Ecumenical it must involve the whole Church. This means, among other things, that Council decrees and canons which are rejected by the Church as a whole (including the monks, the laity generally, and the clergy not present at the Council) have no authority. This is the conciliar principle which Orthodoxy holds.
Second,and related to this, the Scripture texts themselves indicate that the Church, the coporate Body of Christ, is that against which the gates of Hades shall not prevail, and it is the Church which is “the pillar and foundation of the truth.” This is not true of the individual’s heart. Individualism is, in any event, a heresy- contrasted with the understanding of human beings as “persons” (those in communion with another, and only fully themselves- and conformed to the image of God-when this takes place)
Third, a person’s conscience can err. One must properly form one’s conscience in order to be able to follow it as any kind of reliable guide. By what is it to be formed? The collective mind of the Church, which as also the mind of Christ, of Whom the Church is His collective body of which He is the Head.
Patrick
Not to delve too deeply into Catholic-Orthodox issues (by the way, why aren’t we united again in full communion? let’s get on that!), but I would point out a few things. The Catholic Church also does not view Councils as old men getting together in smoke filled rooms then imposing decrees on everyone. The Catholic Church also affirms the sensus fidelium that is similar to what Dr. Fodor describes. But a few points: After Nicaea I in 325 AD, there were *lots* of Arians running around, clergy and laity, who didn’t accept the Council’s decision. The Council’s decrees were still binding and were not invalidated because a (sizeable) portion of Christians in the Church were Arians.
Secondly, the Orthodox admit that they do not quite know what is required for a Council to be an Ecumenical one, which is one of the reasons why in the past millennium since the formal schism they have not held any. The question of Ecumenical Councils is a crucial one when discerning between Catholics and Orthodox. The Catholic Church has continued convening (what she calls) Ecumenical Councils over the past millennium. During two of those Councils (in the 1200s then in the 1400s), Orthodox representatives attended and reunions were briefly achieved, though unfortunately the climate in the East was not hospitable for the first reunion and the second one was undermined by the catastrophe of the Muslim conquest of Constantinople.
The short answer to your initial question is: Papal Supremacy. Since the last two Roman popes have agreed to remove the filioque from the Creed, at least in principle, the biggest sticking point is what it was in the beginning: the claim of universal authority. While a primacy of honor was granted and observed by the Church, this is no problem, but the decree on papal infallibility at Vatican I, among other things, seems to have placed a very serious impediment in the way of clearing up the Supremacy questions. I believe that there is good will on both sides, but I am not sure how we get past the basic theological problem. The main point remains, though, that what makes a Council ecumenical seems, on the Roman Catholic side, to devolve into the approval of the Pope.
Ragrding the Arians, this, as also was the case with the Non-chalcedonians (though we now find that they are in a very different category, and that the differences may have had more to do with politics and language problems than anything else), their refusal to accept the Council did not overturn its ecumenicity (its speaking for the whole Church) because the position of Arius was so clearly incompatable with the fundamental dogmas of Christianity that it placed those who held it outside of the community from whcih consent was necessary. A Council today wouldn’t allow Mormon objections to invalidate its decrees, to use an analogy.
The idea that Orthodox admit that we cannot define what makes a Council Ecumenical is, I would suggest, overstating the case. There are a number of side issues here, including the status of local councils, the role (historically) of the emperor (who obviously does not now exist) in calling the Councils, and so on. The Orthodox have been speaking of a coming Ecumenical Council for some time now. I would suggest that practical and mechanical questions are responsible for the fact that this has not taken place- not, strictly speaking, theological ones.
The examples of the Roman Catholic Councils illustrate the point I was making about how Orthodoxy understands conciliar authority. On paper, the two churches actually reunited in 1274 by the Second Council of Lyon, and in 1439 by the Council of Florence. In each case, however, these reunifications involved simple capitulation o fthe Orthodox to Roman standards, fueled by the East Roman Empire’s need for help against the Ottoman Turks. In both cases the councils were repudiated by the Orthodox people as a whole, on the grounds that the hierarchs had overstepped their authority in consenting to reunification without doctrinal unity which was in keeping with what the Church had always taught. Bishops, priests, monks, and laity all rejected these councils, and nothing ever came of them for that reason, despite the support of the Emperor.
The Roman Church continues to call Councils which she judges, by her standards, to call Ecumenical. If and when the Orthodox get around to calling a Council, it will be considered Ecumenical, too. Neither side accepts the ecumenical nature of the other’s councils after the Seventh, however. In fact, there is even disagreement over the Quinisext Council/Trullo, which the Orthodox see as a continuation and kind of appendix to the Sixth Ecumenical Council, but which the Roman Catholic church does not accept as valid or binding. We should note, too, that both bodies see the non-dogmatic canons of the early Councils (the disciplinary canons) as not necessarily binding, even though all agree that these Councils are ecumenical.
Thanks for your irenic tone and helpful perspective, Patrick. Caleb will have two main Churches to consider if he leaves Protestantism: the (Eastern) Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. Hopefully our brief interchange will help him become aware of some of the issues between us.
I will continue to pray that our bishops and patriarchs can, by God’s grace, achieve unity for our Churches.
Caleb,
I believe “sola scriptura” is a reasonable position to hold. From what I understand the canon of Scripture as we know it was given to us by God. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” 2 Timothy 3:16
First, the canon was not “approved” or “authorized” by an early church council. What they might have done was agree with what was already considered Holy Scripture. Who can approve or authorize what has been given to man by God? In the apostolic age, there was no one church which was supreme over all the local churches in the New Testament. Therefore the Holy Scriptures did not come from a particular church. The epistles were written by the New Testament writers under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and were delivered to the New Testament churches. If you examine the beginning of the New Testament epistles, you will see that each one is addressed to a particular local church or christians in certain areas.
The Old Testament was quoted by Christ and the apostles in the New Testament and therefore it is clear they recognized the Old Testament as Holy Scripture. It had been completed 400 years before Christ came to earth.
From what have I learned the early church evidently recognized the books of the New Testament as inspired Scripture from about 75 A.D. until roughly 200 A.D. The New Testament books did not have to be explicitly listed in the New Testament Scripture itself to be recognized as Holy Scripture by the early church. Remember the doctrine of the trinity is also not explicitly stated in the Bible, but has been accepted as a central teaching of the Bible. It is believed by inference in the Bible itself. Similarly, the early church accepted the New Testament books as Holy Scripture by the testimony that is written in them as the Holy Spirit revealed it to the early believers. (see John 16:13; 1 John 2:27) In that way “sola scriptura” does describe how the books came to be recognized as Holy Scripture.
The fact that later church councils made declarations about what books formed Holy Scripture does not add or detract from what the early christians had already believed. In other words, the acceptance of what is the canon of Scripture does not depend on the pronouncements of the later church councils.
I understand an index and chapter and verse numbers were added simply for the convenience of the reader and to make a way to reference verses in the Bible.
If you consider that the early believers accepted the Bible based on the fact that the content gives clear evidence as being from God, and all doctrines to be believed must be proven with the Bible (Isaiah 8:20), then I think “sola scriptura” is a reasonable position to hold to. “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:21
But Wayne, since the Book of Hebrews references the Book of Maccabees, by your logic then it too should be recognized as scripture, since the author wouldn’t have cited it had it not been recognized already as sacred scripture. Yet Protestant Bibles do not have that book.
If a church council has no authority to designate what is scripture, but only what is commonly recognized by the church already, then by what authority did Martin Luther cast out several books of the Bible?
Wayne,
Other problems with your statements: Jude quotes prophecy from Enoch and accounts from the Assumption of Moses. It was doubted until the 4th and 5th centuries (and it was one of the four NT books that Luther dismissed on the grounds that it was not universally attested to).
Paul wrote other letters to other local churches that we do not have anymore. Were they Scripture? Why wouldn’t they be? Why would some letters Paul wrote to churches be inspired and others not? How would the early Church know?
The evidence of which books were accepted by 200 AD is sparse. We have some early Fathers mention books (Clement, Irenaeus, etc.), but they also talked about baptismal regeneration, real presence in the Eucharist, bishop-priest-deacon hierarchy, and apostolic succession/tradition, so why should they be credible to you? Then we have the Muratorian fragment, an 8th or 9th century _copy_ of what was maybe a 2nd to 4th century original manuscript, but the canon there is truncated or incomplete at best.
Hebrews got late adoption. Revelation as well. 2 Peter was uncertain, as were 2 & 3 John.
The first exact NT canon wasn’t given until 367 AD by Bishop Athanasius, and his OT excluded Esther while including deuterocanonical works (you would call these “apocryphal”). The conflicting and sparse historical evidence on the canon cannot give conscience-binding certainty to any Christian, whether the 66 book Protestant, 73 book Catholic, or 73-78 book Orthodox.
Jorge,
I agree with you about the 30,000 denominations thing. It’s something of a rhetorical exaggeration. At the same time, as a seminary educated Protestant (though not a minister), I think we have to admit that there are serious differences between the major Protestant denominations. Even if we just divide it up to Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopalian, Presbyterian, and Baptist (in which I would also include just about all Bible churches and non-denominational churches) we have 4 very different approaches to the sacraments, church polity, the understanding of the relationship between justification and sanctification, to name the 3 that come to the top of my head. There may be more. For example, as a Presbyterian, I would no more take communion at a Lutheran church because of consubstantiation than at a Catholic church because of transubstantiation.
So, I guess the question is, is the Holy Spirit really guiding and directing all these different denominations to reach these different opinions on these really key doctrines? This is something that I really struggle with. I can no more convince a Baptist of the validity of infant baptism from the Scriptures than a dispensationalist could convince me that the end times are right around the corner based upon their careful exegesis of Revelation, Daniel, and Fox News. We are both reading the same Scriptures, are both praying for the Spirit’s illumination, and yet we arrive at different conclusions. Does that not bother you at all?
Is it simply an issue of not having prayed enough or just not being faithful to the “true and clear” understanding of Scripture?
Sorry to jump in here, but I’ve been following these types of issues on ctc and Devin’s blog which brought me here, and just needed to get that out.
A nitpicky comment. For some reason, the font on this site is barely readable in both Firefox and IE. It really detracts from the excellent dialog.
I’m trying to work on it. I’m so sorry! I saw this application to try out new fonts and it’s backfired. I’ll change it. Thanks for notifying me.
It’s better now.
Dear writer,
I am not an intellectual, but could you enlighten me? What was your goal or purpose in writing this article? Just a simple question. Thanks.
…to hopefully sort out some thoughts I was having about Sola Scriptura.
…i see. and were you thoughts to disprove or prove anything? questions like this help me understand where the writer is coming from
Jane, Devin,
Jane, Could you give the chapter and verse in Hebrews which you said refers to the Book of Maccabees? I am not familiar with that and would like to see it.
Martin Luther did not throw out the Apocryphal books from the Bible. Those books were never universally recognized as Holy Scripture. The Apocryphal books were added to the Bible by the Council of Trent in 1546.
Remember the Jewish prophets wrote the Hebrew Old Testament over a period of approximately 1000 years and completed it about 400 years before Christ came to earth and they never contained the Apocryphal books. These were added to the Septuagint translation (Greek translation) in the 2nd century B.C. But not all copies contained the same books, indicating there was disagreement on which ones should be added.
So the Apocryphal books were never a part of the Hebrew Old Testament. The Palestinian Jews never accepted the Apocryphal additions.
Protestants accept only the 39 books of the Old Testament that were in the Hebrew Bible at the time of Christ.
There is no record that Christ or the apostles ever quoted from them or made any use of them, although they must have known of them. I have read that in the New Testament there are 260 direct quotations and 370 allusions to passages in the Old Testament but none to the Apocryphal books. I believe the reason is that they did not regard them as Scripture.
I have not read the Apocrypha, but I have heard there are things in them that contradict what the Bible teaches. The early christians accepted the 66 books of Scripture which Protestants have today because the Holy Spirit illuminated their minds to do so. Jesus said in John chapter 16 he would send the Holy Spirit to fulfil a number of things, one of which was to teach His disciples. 1 John 2:27 refers to the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. God has given the Holy Spirit to guide and teach believers.
Devin,
Why certain letters were accepted as Holy Scripture and others were not in the early centuries was I believe the work of God the Holy Spirit which illuminated the minds of believers in the early church. Some seem to want to have a detailed archeological and scientific explanation before they will believe it as the inspired canon of Scripture. I don’t think that is possible. It may be a futile pursuit. We simply don’t have all the details of how it exactly happened. I am just happy that it happened, and accept the Bible I have today as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Wayne,
You said that The Apocryphal books were added to the Bible by the Council of Trent in 1546. .
This claim can be refuted in several ways, but just to list one: the Eastern Orthodox Churches, which formally schismed in 1054 AD, also include the seven deuterocanonicals (you would say “apocrypha”) in their canon. This was 500 years before Trent.
Wayne, Jerome translated the apocyrphal books that Martin Luther moved to the appendix, and were later discarded. (He moved them to the appendix: that means they were in the Bible.) He did the same with James, Jude and Revelation, but they got moved back in-line with the rest of the text. Thomas Aquinas and Augustine of Hippo both referenced these books. Origen used them.
Those books were in the Septuagint, which is where most of the NT references to the OT come from. There’s no admonition to, by the way, leave some of those books out of it.
The canon of the NT and the OT was established at the Council of Hippo in 393 and at the Council of Carthage in 397. The fact that it was re-established AGAIN at the Council of Trent was directly in response to Luther’s actions.
Do you really think the luminaries of the Catholic Church read Martin Luther’s writings and then thought, “Gee, we have to go back and dig up seven more books of the Bible to justify our belief in Purgatory”?
History just doesn’t work that way. Those books were there and were commonly accepted. The Ethiopian Jews used those books as well (the OT books, obviously, not the NT books).
Oh, and the reference you asked for. Sorry. Hebrews 11:35 references 2 Maccabees 7. It tells the story of a woman and her sons. The reference in Hebrews refers to women receiving their dead by resurrection. Virtually every scholar believes that the passage in Hebrews 11 is a reference to Maccabees.
Sorry to come back so soon. I did a little more poking around and found this:
The Protestant patristics scholar J. N. D. Kelly writes: “Quotations from Wisdom, for example, occur in 1 Clement and Barnabas. . . Polycarp cites Tobit, and the Didache [cites] Ecclesiasticus. Irenaeus refers to Wisdom, the History of Susannah, Bel and the Dragon [i.e., the deuterocanonical portions of Daniel], and Baruch. The use made of the Apocrypha by Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian and Clement of Alexandria is too frequent for detailed references to be necessary” (Early Christian Doctrines, 53-54).
Since you haven’t read those books, don’t believe they contain things that contradict the rest of the Bible. They don’t. I’ve read them.
And finally, you stated that the Holy Spirit would guide our minds etc. If that’s the case, why would the Holy Spirit leave those books in circulation for so long? Since the Jews ejected them from the canon at Javneh in AD 90, wouldn’t it have been possible for God to have arranged things so they were ejected sixty years earlier? In time for Jesus’s followers to have the “right” set of books?
Or was it more that the Jews ejected those books because the people who studied them converted to Christianity?
philangelus,
Thank you for your response. I will take a closer look at your postings, I just wanted to comment on Hebrews 11:35 at the moment. The first part of this verse says “Women received their dead raised to life again:” You will agree this chapter is talking about examples of the faith that Old Testament believers had. Information I have says this verse refers to the widow of Zarephath mentioned in 1 Kings ch.17 vs17-24 and the Shunammite woman mentioned in 2 Kings ch4 vs8-36, who were tortured instead of being delivered so that they would obtain a better resurrection. Also, it is reminiscent of the heroic Maccabean Jewish patriots of the second century B.C. (see 2 Maccabees 7) This information is from marginal notes in my Bible.
This does not prove Hebrews 11:35 was referring 2 Maccabees. It could just as easily have referred to the verses mentioned in 1 Kings and 2 Kings. I think the point is that this verse does not give any support to 2 Maccabees being Scripture. It could just as easily be a historical book.
Somehow I went from being Jane to being Philangelus — I’m not sure how that happened. My apologies for any confusion.
Information I have says this verse refers to the widow of Zarephath mentioned in 1 Kings ch.17 vs17-24 and the Shunammite woman mentioned in 2 Kings ch4 vs8-36, who were tortured instead of being delivered so that they would obtain a better resurrection. Also, it is reminiscent of the heroic Maccabean Jewish patriots of the second century B.C. (see 2 Maccabees 7) This information is from marginal notes in my Bible.
Did either of those women watch their children being tortured? Were they specifically expressing hope in a resurrection? No. It’s clearly referring to this: http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2maccabees/2maccabees7.htm
First you said:
The Old Testament was quoted by Christ and the apostles in the New Testament and therefore it is clear they recognized the Old Testament as Holy Scripture.
But then you said:
I think the point is that this verse does not give any support to 2 Maccabees being Scripture. It could just as easily be a historical book.
You can’t have it both ways. Either quoted texts are quoted because they ARE holy scripture, or they are not.
Jane,
Sorry for the confusion. philangelus also referred to Hebrews 11:35. But that is no problem. I did reply to your posting on Oct 29 at 2:48PM as well as to philangelus and Devin.
I looked at your link to 2 Maccabees ch7 but it is quite long. Could you tell me which verse you are referring to? I find this interesting.
Hebrews 11:35 talks about heroic women of faith in Old Testament times. You will agree with that won’t you? Hebrews chapter 11 is about people of faith in the Old Testament times, correct? In verse 35 it speaks about this women of faith saying two things. The first part of the verse speaks about women who received their dead to life again. This refers to 1 Kings ch17 vs 17 to 24 which is an account of the prophet Elijah raising a widow’s dead son to life through prayer. “And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again and he revived.” 1 Kings ch17 vs22. Also, in 2 Kings ch4 vs8 to 37 is the account of the son of a Shunammite woman being raised from the dead by the prophet Elisha. I hope you will read these passages as I have done.
The second part of Hebrews ch11 vs 35 says “and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection.” Many Old Testament believers were tortured and killed because of their faith. Many were persecuted and suffered scourging rather than give up their faith. This was true in Old Testament times as well as the New Testament era. This verse is recounting what people of faith in Old Testament times went through. It is not quoting something from 2 Maccabees.
There are many verses from the Old Testament that Jesus and the apostles directly quoted in the New Testament. An example would be in Hebrews ch1 vs 5(a) “For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten thee?” This is a direct quote of Psalm 2 vs7 which says “I will declare the decree: The Lord hath said unto me, Thou are my Son; This day have I begotten thee.”
As I have tried to explain the second part of Hebrews 11:35 is a general reference to those who suffered for their faith in Old Testament times. There is no direct quote there. Now 2 Maccabees might have examples of people who also suffered for their faith because it is known that the Maccabees were very patriotic and may have likewise suffered for their faith. However, the information in 2 Maccabees could still be an accurate historical account of their suffering without being holy Scripture. Josephus also wrote historical accounts of this which took place around the time of Christ, but his writings are not considered as Scripture.
There may be some historical information in some of these apocryphal books which has some historical value, but the main point is that Jesus and the apostles never quoted these books because they obviously never considered them as Holy Scripture.
Wayne:
I’m sure Jane is pointing you to the whole of Chapter 7 (42 verses) because it is one thing, the famous and dramatic story of the martyrdom of the 7 brothers and their mother.
Notice a few important theological points about this passage:
1) It speaks of the resurrection of the body; I think my study notes said this is the first time in the OT period. (A quick search of the OT in the KJV, New KJV, and SV fail to even find the word “resurrection”)
2) It speaks of their deaths atoning for the sins of the Hebrews (7:32-38) – another OT first.
3) When the Sadducees “who say there is no resurrection” approached Jesus with their story of the 7 brothers and the wife (Mt 22:23+), I think they were mocking this story (along with Tobit) because they would have thought the sacrifice ridiculous. After all, for their story, 2 or 3 husbands would have established their point, and there was no need for the series of husbands to be brothers to make their point.
If you read the story, you will see that Jane’s point is well made: Hebrews 11:35 is referring specifically to 2 Mac 7.
Tom, that’s an awesome point about Tobit — I hadn’t made that connection. And the Sadducees’ question.
I’m backing out of this conversation though because Wayne didn’t answer my questions and I see no reason to antagonize him on a thread that is supposed to be supportive of Caleb’s spiritual exploration. Whatever happens, my prayer is that Caleb is led to the relationship with God that ONLY Caleb can have, the one God created for just Him and Caleb. Squabbling with Wayne about Maccabees isn’t going to forward that.
(Although I admit, I’m dreadfully curious about whether the website is going to recognize me as “Jane” or “Philangelus” this time. LOL! It’s a mystery.)
Devin,
There are some serious obstacles to considering the Apocrypha as Scripture.
1. Probably the most important point is that Christ and the apostles did not quote from them. They quoted 260 direct quotations from the Old Testament but never from the Apocrypha.
2. The Apocryphal books were not included in the Hebrew Old Testament. They were included to a varying extent in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament Scriptures.
3. Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate, which became the authorized Roman Catholic Bible, declared emphatically that the Apocrypha was no part of the Old Testament Scriptures. Boettner says that Jerome, “apart from his wishes and his better judgment, allowed himself to be persuaded by two of his bishop friends who admired the books of Tobit and Judith to make a hurried translation of those. He is said to have translated Tobit at one sitting and neither of them received the careful attention that had been given to the books which he considered canonical. Later they were bound up in the Vulgate and served to encourage the addition of the other Apocryphal books.”
3. The Apocrypha was rejected by Origen, who is acknowledged to have been the most learned man in the church before Augustine.
4. It was rejected by Tertullian and by Athanasius. “Augustine was about the only scholar among the prominent scholars in the early church who was willing to give the Apocrypha a place in the Bible, but it is not certain he considered it authoritative in all cases.”
5. Boettner said opinion within the Roman church has been divided on the canonicity of it. Luther’s opponent at Augsburg in 1518, Cardinal Cajetan, in his commentary on all the authentic books of the Old Testament, which he dedicated to Pope Clement VII, approved of the Hebrew canon, which had no Apocrypha, as opposed to the Alexandrian which contained the Apocrypha.
So opinion on it has been divided until the Council of Trent added it officially to the Old Testament nearly 2000 years after the Old Testament was completed. The reason it was added was because at the time of the Reformation the Reformers vigourously attacked doctrines which they considered unscriptural and Rome needed something to defend her doctrines, particularly the doctrine of purgatory. They thought they could support purgatory with II Maccabees 12:40-45 but upon close examination, it will be seen that it does not support it at all. — information from Boettner’s book on Roman Catholicism.
To Caleb: I will pray for you, that God will guide you to where He wants you to be. I have been in much the same position (as a seminarian at an evangelical seminary, even). The only advice I have is to pray and read much, and beyond that, don’t let yourself go too long only in your head. Attend liturgy at a Catholic and/or Orthodox parish, talk with the priests, and prayerfully trust God to guide you.
To Wayne: it is unfortunate that you have apparently relied so heavily on Loraine Boettner’s book. It is extremely flawed, and utterly unscholarly. You would do much better to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church alongside the Bible, and see for yourself whether and where they conflict.
Boettner’s book should not be relied upon for a truthful explanation of Catholicism or church history. Take the time to read the following:
http://www.catholic.com/library/The_Anti_Catholic_Bible.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/More_Catholic_Inventions.asp
Scott,
I don’t want to leave you with the wrong impression. I have other material I read as well as Boettner. I have read the catechism of the RCC alongside the Bible. I even have several NAB RC Bibles as well as my trustworthy KJV (1611). I have a comprehensive RC book “Instructions in the Catholic Faith” by parish priests. Also, I have marked one or two major RC catechism websites which are about as official as you can get.
Do you believe the Bible is written by men who were inspired by God to write what they wrote? Do you believe the Bible is inerrant?
Do you believe the Bible should be man’s final authority on matters of faith and morals? Why or why not?
Wayne,
My point is that you should not rely on Boettner at all for an honest account of Catholicism. His work is utterly unreliable hearsay, and historically extremely inaccurate.
You can not have read the Catechism very thoroughly if these are honest questions you pose to a Catholic. In CCC 704 we read that “By ‘prophets’ the faith of the Church here understands all whom the Holy Spirit inspired in living proclamation and in the composition of the sacred books, both of the Old and the New Testaments.” In CCC 105, “God is the author of Sacred Scripture… written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit,” and in 107 “[t]he books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided in the Sacred Scriptures.” These are summarized in CCC 136. The Catholic Church has taught that Scripture is inspired and inerrant from the beginning, long before any Protestants existed to accuse otherwise.
As to your third question, in a word, no. And I challenge you accordingly (since you evidently do believe this) to show me the verses of Scripture that say that it should be. 2 Timothy doesn’t do this, as Caleb discussed above. Christ himself says “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,” which seems to say that the Scriptures alone are not enough, we must have the living Word to whom they point.
Scripture must be read and understood in the context of the living Church within which it was written and brought together. When you say “the Bible should be man’s final authority on matters of faith and morals,” I know well that you mean that you consider it your prerogative to judge whether the Church’s teachings are biblical. You, however, do not have the authority to do so, and neither do I. Christ explicitly made his Apostles our shepherds. Throughout the New Testament it is clear that they have authority from God to lead the Church, and it is a matter of historical record that they appointed successors at the ends of their lives to carry on this work. To place oneself in a position of judgment over the shepherds God has given us is itself unbiblical.
As for your five points against the “Apocrypha,” in none of them have you provided a primary or even verifiable secondary source to back up your assertions. Boettner does not qualify as a source, as you will notice that he himself appears unable to provide sources for his assertions about the early Church Fathers. Where in the writings of Jerome, Origen, Tertullian, or Athanasius do you find these statements (keep in mind, too, that neither Origen nor Tertullian are considered saints, both having departed from the orthodox faith during their lives).
If you wish to understand the Catholic Church’s teaching on Scripture, you must actually listen to what she says, not to what Protestant authors say about her. Take the time to carefully read CCC 50-143 (it’s only about 21 pages).
Scott,
“My point is that you should not rely on Boettner at all for an honest account of Catholicism. His work is utterly unreliable hearsay, and historically extremely inaccurate.”
On what basis do you make that claim? Have you even studied his book or cross-checked his information with some other sources? Loraine Boettner is a graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary (Th.B. 1928; Th.M., 1929) where he studied systematic theology under the late C.W. Hodge. Charles Hodge was a very distinguished theologian. I have his set of theology books also. To say that Boettner’s work is hearsay and extremely inaccurate is quite off the top. You are talking about extremely highly educated and learned theologians. I believe Loraine Boettner has gone to be with the Lord, probably some years ago.
I have not read the longer catechism that you may be referring to, but I have read the Baltimore Catechism and parts of a book I have “Instructions in the Catholic Faith”, albeit some time ago and various other literature from time to time in the past. I will attempt to examine some of the references you gave on the internet.
My understanding is, yes, the RCC does say that Scripture is inerrant. But they add what they call tradition and make tradition of equal authority with Holy Scripture. What gives the RC the authority to claim their church councils or “majesterium” is of equal authority to God’s written Word. If Holy Scripture is God’s written Word, how can any human or church council claim to have authority above what God wrote or authority to claim to have the infallible interpretation of what God has written?
You said “When you say “the Bible should be man’s final authority on matters of faith and morals,” I know well that you mean that you consider it your prerogative to judge whether the Church’s teachings are biblical. You, however, do not have the authority to do so, and neither do I. Christ explicitly made his Apostles our shepherds. ”
Scott, you said Christ explicitly made his Apostles our shepherds. How you believe the apostles can be our guides since they are no longer alive on earth today? I accept that what Christ and the apostles wrote in Holy Scripture as the Holy Spirit illuminates it is the final authority. (read 1 John 2:27) Are you willing to accept that?
What did Christ mean when he said to his disciples “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. “? John ch16 vs12, 13.
Who does the first chapter of the Epistle to the Romans say the epistle is addressed to?
Regarding Boettner: You are arguing from authority (a logical fallacy). Many people have many degrees but are still wrong. I have a graduate degree in theology, too. Our current pope was a professor of theology at a major German university, and wrote several textbooks on theology. Does that make me or him more right than you automatically? I know Boettner’s book is bad because I am Catholic, I’ve studied Catholicism and Church history in depth (often from primary sources) having converted from a Reformed background, and I see in the parts of Boettner’s work that I’ve read a ridiculous caricature of Catholicism. It is not trustworthy. Neither I nor any other faithful Catholic believe what it says we do.
Regarding shepherds and guides, above I also said (as has the Church for nearly 2000 years) that the Apostles appointed successors to continue their work as shepherds of Christ’s flock. We do have living guides among us in the bishops who stand in succession from the Apostles. None of the Scripture gotchas you’re trying here hold any water against me: I’m Catholic, which means I accept all of Scripture. There’s nothing in the Bible that you can embarrass or stun me with, I’ve read it all. I see the Catholic Church all over all of the citations you’ve thrown at me.
Finally, pick an accusation: does the Church make herself equal to or above Scripture? You’re saying both here. In fact, the Church does neither, but does claim to be the only authoritative interpreter of Scripture, and this is grounded in Matthew 16 (wherein Christ gives Peter the Keys to the Kingdom). The Church teaches that she is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ, and it is from him (not from a mere man or council) that her charter comes. Moreover, the Spirit of Truth that guides the Church protects her from error; it is not the qualities of a group of men that makes her infallible, but the protection of the Holy Spirit. This is attested at the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:28. From your two responses, can I assume that you do not have a passage of Scripture that attests to your question regarding whether I believe it to be “man’s final authority on matters of faith and morals?”
As for the Catechism, when we speak of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church,” there is a particular publication to which we are referring. You can find the section on Sacred Scripture here: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt2.shtml#art3
Scott,
“As to your third question, in a word, no. And I challenge you accordingly (since you evidently do believe this) to show me the verses of Scripture that say that it should be. 2 Timothy doesn’t do this, as Caleb discussed above. Christ himself says “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,” which seems to say that the Scriptures alone are not enough, we must have the living Word to whom they point. ”
Jesus said that when he was speaking to the Jewish leaders (John ch.5 vs39). Despite their great reverence for the letter of Scripture, they did not recognize Christ as the Messiah. That was what Jesus was referring to. They could search the Scriptures but still did not know Jesus was the Messiah.
Are you familiar with the qualifications to be considered an apostle? (see Hebrews ch2 vs3, 4) In order to have been considered an apostle, these verse show that one must have seen Christ. They also were able to perform signs and wonders. Who can claim to be an apostle today?
Caleb wrote: ” I must also say that my beliefs that must replace Sola Scriptura are still being worked out in my mind and heart. I simply do not yet know precisely how I will articulate the alternative at this time. “
Caleb: here’s a suggestion that might prove fruitful for you (and probably no one else): study the two deutro-canonical wisdoms books, Wisdom and Sirach. (I use the Navarre study of the Wisdom books, which includes these two.) I’m throwing this out as something of a diversion: you know the OT and NT well; weigh the implications if these books were to be accepted as Scripture. For example, could Calvin’s systematic theology be formulated as is if it had to include these two books? (They have a more positive view of creation, as in today’s first reading http://www.usccb.org/nab/103110.shtml)
Your study might look at the development of doctrine as a development, as seen in these books from the very late OT period, where NT ideas were starting to break in (ie, be revealed by the Holy Spirit – as in Sirach 24 http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/sirach/sirach24.htm ) or Wisdom 7:22-30 http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom7.htm (though I’ll warn you that the RSV generally reads better than the NAB – a correct but dull translation).
Another interesting topic to wrestle with is that even though Sirach is inconsistent in its sources (it was originally written in Hebrew, but largely comes to us through differing Greek and Latin translations) it is seen by the Catholic and Orthodox churches even in this state as canonical and is, of course, “profitable for teaching” and especially “training in righteousness”. (Augustine quoted it hundreds of times.) This would be, I think, a stumbling block for Sola Scriptura, but it is possible for a Church in which Jesus invested teaching authority and in which the guidance of the Holy Spirit is, as promised, constant (however dimly discerned by us sinful men).
Scott,
You said,
“None of the Scripture gotchas you’re trying here hold any water against me:”
Then you said:
“I’m Catholic, which means I accept all of Scripture. There’s nothing in the Bible that you can embarrass or stun me with, I’ve read it all.”
Since you know it all, I guess there is not much I can say.
Well, that’s kind of the thing, Wayne: I don’t have to know it all. I read Scripture with the Church, and I see the Church all throughout it, but it is the Holy Spirit working through the Church that is my guide. No, you can’t convince me by quoting verses at me that the Church is not the Church, because I know the scriptures well enough not to be taken by surprise (although I hope the Spirit continues to teach me and deepen my understanding of them throughout my life), and on points that are unclear I trust the Church’s teachings on their interpretations. I’m more interested in you dropping the misconceptions and half truths you have about Catholicism and engaging with it honestly. I have no doubt that you have thought up to this point that your understanding of the Catholic Church was accurate, but I hope I have helped you to see that it is not.
Wayne, let us both seek God “like watchmen for the morning,” and trust him to guide us. I am praying for you as well as for Caleb, and I hope you will return that grace for me.
Jane,
You said “I’m backing out of this conversation though because Wayne didn’t answer my questions and I see no reason to antagonize him on a thread that is supposed to be supportive of Caleb’s spiritual exploration.”
I did indeed study Heb. 11:35 and the two verses in the Old Testament, spending quite a bit of time on it and I gave a long, careful answer which you seemed to dismiss out of hand saying I didn’t answer your questions. From what you are saying it seems you did not carefully consider Heb. 11:35 and the references I gave. You say this is supposed to be supportive of Caleb’s spiritual exploration. You have a right to that view, but don’t forget Caleb’s whole article is really not an “spiritual exploration”. He is attacking the biblical teaching of sola scriptura. That is what his article is all about. Anyone is free to comment on his article, even people who disagree with his point of view. If you don’t wish to discuss it, thats fair enough. My point in posting here and discussing it with you was to help you see the falacy of attacking the Bible as God’s inspired Word. The Bible tells the only way of getting to heaven. What we are dealing with here has implications on where a person spends eternity. It is not a place to make Caleb feel good in his error which could have eternal implications for some people.
You said it was too difficult to read a whole chapter of Maccabees and avoided several other questions I asked. Therefore I’m backing out. I never said the Bible is not God’s inspired Word. You are the one attacking several books of the Old Testament as being not God’s inspired Word, and the deuterocanonicals were never Caleb’s question to begin with.
As for eternal implications–Caleb has taken on genuine questions in a prayerful, logical, reverent fashion. If God is going to punish anyone for prayerfully and lovingly discerning what God wants him to do and believe, then we have a heck of a lot more to worry about than whether sola scriptura is accurate. Jesus wouldn’t have come to save us if He didn’t love us first.
Part of God’s love is sending the Holy Spirit to guide the hearts of faithful men like Caleb who approach God with open hands and an important question and humbly ask God for guidance. I assure you that if the Holy Spirit speaks to Caleb, nothing you or I says can possibly turn him back.
So why squabble in his combox?
(I’m looking at the screen and it seems to have logged me in as Philangelus again. This is beyond bizarre. What on earth is WordPress doing?)
This isn’t my exchange, but I’ll respond anyway: Wayne, nobody here is attacking the Bible as God’s inspired word. We all here believe that it is. But since you bring it up, where exactly in Scripture is the “biblical doctrine” of Sola Scriptura taught? And if you were to somehow find that, in what way is it not question-begging (that is, assuming the reliability of Scripture in order to accept its testimony when it says that it is reliable)? Jesus himself says that if he testifies to himself, his testimony is of no value, but that if another testifies for him, then the two together can be believed. If Scripture alone testified to its reliability (via sola scriptura), it could not be held to be reliable. It is the Church testifying to the reliability of Scripture that lets both Scripture and the Church be reliable for grounding our faith and lives.
Jane,
“Did either of those women watch their children being tortured? Were they specifically expressing hope in a resurrection? No.”
The first part of Hebrews 11:35 is referring to the verses I gave in 1 Kings: ch17 vs 17-24 and 2 King ch4 vs 8-37 where two accounts of women receiving sons to life again are given.
The second part of Hebrews 11:35 is a reference to the faith that Old Testament saints who were martyred. They believed for their suffering they would have a better resurrection after death. A good resurrection was the Old Testament believer’s hope just as it is the New Testament christian’s hope. If you can quote a verse from Maccabees to show some direct link I am willing to examine it. But so far you have not done so. I continue to be open-minded to discussion with anyone who is willing to discuss something.
Jane,
Are you saying that system was logging you in as philangelus? That is amazing. Here I thought all along that philangelus was a different person. Wow.
Yes, I tried to clarify that after the first time because I didn’t realize what it was doing. I honestly didn’t mean to “sock-puppet” myself. Both links seem to lead to the same weblog. I really am only one person, despite the fact that sometimes I feel stupid enough for two. :-b
The Maccabees reference is all of 2 Maccabees 7, which was the above link:
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2maccabees/2maccabees7.htm
It’s a story, not a verse-to-a-verse link, the same way you’d say “The Prodigal Son” and not refer to a single verse.
Jane,
You said in part “Part of God’s love is sending the Holy Spirit to guide the hearts of faithful men”
That is a very biblical comment. I am not sure if you understood what you were saying in the context of sola scriptura though. That is exactly what this discussion should be centered on. Jesus said in John chap. 16 he would send the Holy Spirit to guide his disciples which includes christians throughout the ages. 1 John 2:27 says the Holy Spirit would abide in and teach believers and that believers do not need any man to teach them.
A central problem is that those who are opposed to sola scriptura don’t accept what these verses in John 16 and 1 John 2:27 are saying. They are saying we need the church, church councils, or majesterium to teach us what the Scripture is saying. They substitute the church or majesterium in place of the Holy Spirit which God has sent for believers.
Wayne,
You say above that the passage in Hebrews 11 is referring to 1 and 2 Kings as if you know that with certainty. Why should anyone trust your interpretation of Scripture above their own or anyone else’s? The stories of the Maccabees was famous and fresh to the Jews at the time. It is perfectly reasonable, given the audience being addressed and their background, to conclude that it is 2 Maccabees 7 being referenced… I would argue more so specifically than 1 and 2 Kings.
Same with John 16 and 1 John 2. Jesus is speaking to the assembled disciples, yet you treat his words as if they are intended for individuals. Individualism of this kind was not a part of the Jewish worldview at that time (or ever, really). Yes, it includes Christians of all ages, but Jesus also puts Peter in charge of feeding his sheep, and the Apostles (as we’ve already discussed) led the early Church with authority and appointed successors to continue their work after they died. The Holy Spirit is not promised to guide individuals in interpreting Scripture for themselves. That idea expressly forbidden in 2 Peter 1, and the fruit of the attempt with Paul’s letters is condemned in 2 Peter 3.
Likewise 1 John 2: the Apostle says they need no teacher IF they hold to what was taught to them and remain in Christ as taught to them by the apostles. It does not say or imply that no Christian needs a teacher, but that the recipients of that letter, if they are faithful to the Gospel as handed down to them by the author, do not need to be taught further (not, however, that they will automatically “remain in him,” since they are repeatedly told to do so if they wish to be faithful). You are twisting both of these passages to fit a theological innovation of the 16th century, but they both actually speak quite clearly to the authority of Christ’s Church on earth. We do not substitute the Church for the Spirit, we trust Christ’s promise that the Spirit will protect the Church from error, and that it will never fall. It is, in Christ’s promises and the Apostles’ later teaching, infallible.
So again you are mistaken: we Catholics DO affirm what is taught in John 16 and 1 John 2, but not the false teaching to which some Protestants have twisted them.
Scott,
Your belief is based solely on the claim that Peter was the first Pope. That is Rome’s interpretation of Matthew 16:18. But others who beg to differ do not believe that interpretation. When Christ said upon this rock I will build my church, we believe he was speaking of Peter’s confession in the verses immediately preceding this one or referring to Himself (Christ) that the church was to be built on. The apostles do not speak of Peter anywhere in the New Testament as being a pope or head of the church. If Peter really was the head of the church, why is such an important and central teaching not mentioned in various other places in the New Testament? The answer is because Peter never was made a pope or head of the church. In fact Paul rebuked Peter at one point for his error. There is no proof that Peter even lived in Rome. The head of the church is and always has been Christ.
Interesting that when Paul was held in Rome for a lengthy period of time before his death, he wrote his epistle to the Romans (Roman church), but not once did he mention in his epistle that Peter was a pope or that Peter was in Rome, or that Peter ever came to see him there. Why? The answer is obvious. Peter was an apostle to the Jews, not a pope in Rome or anywhere else, and Paul was an apostle to the gentiles.
“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians ch3 vs11
Even the apostle Peter points to Christ as the chief corner stone. “Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.” 1 Peter ch2 vs6.
The true church is build upon the teachings of Christ and the apostles (Holy Scripture).
“And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;” Ephesians ch2 vs20 Again in this verse, Christ is the foundation of the church, not Peter. God did not give his church into the hands of sinful, fallible men.
He sent the Holy Spirit to indwell believers and teach them. That does not mean there is no place for church ministers, teachers, confessions, or biblical church councils. But the final authority has to be Scripture because it is God’s Word and that is the order that God has given men. He did not make sinful and fallible men the final authority on biblical truth.
You are assuming that Catholics believe that the Church is founded on men, or that men are the final authority in the Church, or that the Church is not built on Christ and the Gospel. These are incorrect assumptions. Let me ask you, then: men wrote the books of the Bible. Did God leave the authorship of Scripture to sinful and fallible men? Of course, your answer will be no, that God guided those men in writing Scripture so that it would not err. Why then do you assume that God, having for all of time Scripture was being written and the Temple was active established the use of fallen and sinful men to accomplish his perfect will, would abandon that precedent without saying so clearly? Scripture is written by human authors while at the same time having a Divine Author. The Church is built on Peter and on Christ, and there is no inherent contradiction in this. All of your historical info is a) unsourced and b) generally not accepted by any Church historians I’ve read (as to whether Peter was ever in Rome, etc.)–even the Protestant ones. Peter does speak for the entire assembly in Acts 15 in rendering a decision. It is undeniable that Jesus singles Peter out in Matthew 16, renaming Simon as Peter (“Rock”) in the same breath as he talks about building his Church “upon this rock.” The Protestant reinterpretation of this is forced and contrived, questionable at best. As is the assumption that Paul having confronted Peter undermines Peter’s universal authority in the Church–no Catholic believes that teaching authority means impeccability. News flash: the Pope goes to confession, too. Because he’s a sinner. Just like you and me. It is his office that is instituted by Christ and protected from error by the Spirit, just like the human authors of Scripture were protected from error in their writings while continuing to be sinners.
So, Scripture has to be the final authority, you say. Whose interpretation shall we consider to be definitive and authoritative, then? Because as you well know, thousands of Christians interpret Scripture in thousands of different ways. You and I interpret it in quite different ways right here in these comments. You say the Spirit guides believers. Which one of us is He guiding? And in the Reformation, who was He guiding, Luther or Calvin (or Zwingli or Wesley or Cranmer or Fox…)? And let’s say you have an answer… why should I believe you? You have no authority. Who does? Because every appeal to Scripture is an appeal to an interpretation of Scripture.
Scott,
There are many doctrines which Rome has decreed over the centuries, which do not agree with Scripture. You believe the Roman church has never erred because you believe Peter was the first Pope, etc. It is easy to prove with Scripture that Rome has seriously erred. That is why the Reformation was necessary. For example, Rome went around selling indulgences in Europe just before Luther nailed his 95 theses on the door of the RC church in Wittenburg, Germany. These indulgences were meant to give people time off in purgatory if they purchased the indulgence. I think they were going to use the money to build a new cathedral in Rome. But the Bible does not teach purgatory let alone indulgences. Purgatory and indulgences take away from the fullness of Christ’s love for His church and denies the completness and sufficiency of His sacrifice on the cross. What did Christ accomplish on the cross? Why is purgatory necessary if Christ already paid the full price for sin on the cross?
If you understand Purgatory incorrectly, then yes, it is problematic. But you’re assuming a Protestant theology of salvation in order to fault Catholic teaching. Since Catholics do not accept Protestant theology as true, that doesn’t much bother me. If it is so easy to prove that “Rome” has erred, I invite your proof.
1 Corinthians 3 sounds quite a bit like Purgatory as it is actually taught by the Catholic Church. It is our final purification, not continued justification. Again, you need to really understand what the Church teaches if you want to critique it. Yes, the selling of indulgences was a big problem in the late Medieval Church. No argument there. You’ll notice, though, that it was stopped in the Church’s own reform movements that culminated in the Council of Trent (movements that began before Luther, incidentally). The actual Catholic teaching about Purgatory is found in the Catechism starting at CCC 1030.
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.shtml
Here’s also a page of scriptural references to a final purification:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
You don’t have to agree with it or believe it, but you should at least understand the actual teaching of the Church if you want to criticize it.
You still have not answered my question about who has the authority to interpret Scripture. I have asked it a few times, now.
Caleb, apologies for this comment thread having run away with itself!
No worries, I welcome discussion!
By the way, I linked up your site under the “Arts” category on my links. I really enjoyed your compositions; I can definitely hear Mahler, Part, and Gorecki influences in there, very smart music indeed.
Ditto Jane’s thanks for your hospitality! And thank for your comments about my music and the link. Yep, all three of those composers are among those whom I admire greatly. Pretty cool you were able to pick that out–and unusually keen! Are you a musician?
Well, I was always musical growing up, taking classical piano for the entirety of my childhood and teen years, but upon going to college, lost opportunities to actually play and have instead devoted my energies to appreciating music and hopefully understanding it more as an art form.
That’s great. Funny that you’re not the first philosopher I’ve known who has done pretty much the same, even knowing contemporary music better than a lot of music students. There’s so much good stuff out there, it’s good to know there are people appreciating it.
Thank you, Caleb, for having a good sense of humor about this. I was wondering if you were rolling your eyes and/or considering closing comments.
BTW, I figured out my dual nature here. Apparently if I’m logged into wordpress, I’m Philangelus, but when WordPress logs me out (at random) I become ordinary Jane again. Kind of like a commenting superhero.
I’ve continued praying for your discernment process.
Scott,
I said something to the effect it is easy to prove the errors of the Roman church with the Bible. That was an gross overstatement for which I apologize. I believe the Bible does have the answer to all doctrinal questions, but it is not necessarily easy to show that and it is often difficult to convince someone else. Also, I do not claim to have all the answers.
You said “You still have not answered my question about who has the authority to interpret Scripture. I have asked it a few times, now.”
I believe the authority of interpreting Scripture is NOT so much that the Church receives and approves them as such, but more especially because the Holy Spirit witnesses in our hearts that they are from God, and also because they carry the evidence thereof in themselves. (taken from Belgic Confession of 1561)
Some supporting verses (from RC NAB):
“And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that, in receiving the word of God from hearing us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now at work in you who believe.” 1 Thessalonians ch2 vs13
“All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy ch3 vs16, 17.
“We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” 1 John ch4 vs6
“So there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.” 1 John ch5 vs7
“If you say to yourselves, ‘How can we recognize an oracle which the Lord has spoken?, know that, even though a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if his oracle is not fulfilled or verified, it is an oracle which the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously, and you shall have no fear of him.” Deuteronomy ch18 vs21,22
While looking at these verses, I came upon another relevant verse.
“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.” 1 John 5:9 KJV
Also,
“He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.” 1 John 5:10
The Reformation hinged on the discovery made by the great Reformers; that is, that Christianity was not something that was to be run out of Rome with its elaborate corporate system of top down control, administering salvation, grace, all through certain ordained men (priests), but the revelation God gave to men was that christianity is a personal relationship with God, that salvation is to be obtained by faith alone. Not something administered by certained ordained men following a prescribed ritual. Salvation and forgiveness was and is obtained by going directly to God through Christ as the Bible teaches. The Bible could now be read, interpreted by individual sinners who could now go directly to God through Christ. Christianity is a personal relationship between the individual and Christ (God). As part of this, the learning and edification of the Bible is between God the Holy Spirit and the individual. While church creeds and confessions have their place, the ultimate authority became Holy Scripture as illuminated to the individual by the Holy Spirit.
Well, the controversy here is not over whether the Scriptures are inspired, are from God. All of those verses, tangentially related though they may be, are certainly true. They do not, however answer the question. You only get to that at the very end, when you say that interpretation of Scripture is between God and the individual. What, then, about 2 Peter 1:16-21? “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation.” It is explicit in this chapter that Scripture was written by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the recipients of the letter are exhorted to hold to the interpretation given to them by the Apostles, not by their own interpretation. Likewise, in Acts 8, the Ethiopian eunuch does not try to interpret Scripture for himself, but asks Philip (an Apostle sent out with authority from the Lord Jesus) “How can I understand unless someone instructs me?”
Furthermore: if the Reformers discovered this great doctrine of sola scripture, where was it for the 1500 years preceding them? Had God abandoned his Church to error for over a millennium? You do know that James tells us (in James 2:14-26) that justification is NOT by faith alone, right? This is why Martin Luther attempted to discard James, calling it “an epistle of straw.” Did you know that from the late 1st and early 2nd centuries, we have written witness from the disciples of the Apostles themselves speaking to the authority of bishops and Apostolic succession, of priestly ordination, of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, of baptismal regeneration and so on? All of this from the Christian leaders who literally sat at the feet of the Apostles. Either immediately after the Apostles died the entire Church immediately forgot what they taught, started misunderstanding the Bible, and fell into heresy until the 16th century, or the Reformers got it wrong.
Finally, returning to your closing statement: if the ultimate authority is Holy Scripture illuminated to the individual by the Holy Spirit, then why is it that many thousands of individuals come to diametrically opposed interpretations of Scripture on issues as fundamental as justification, baptism, original sin, faith and works, predestination and election, and so on? If your statement is true, then either the Holy Spirit is intentionally leading individual Christians to opposite conclusions (“A house divided against itself cannot stand”) or He is only leading some and abandoning others.
Scott,
I don’t have time tonight to try to answer all of your questions. But the first question you asked is:
“What, then, about 2 Peter 1:16-21? “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation.” It is explicit in this chapter that Scripture was written by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the recipients of the letter are exhorted to hold to the interpretation given to them by the Apostles, not by their own interpretation.”
This verse means all prophecy (Scripture) is of divine origin. “No scripture is of private interpretation, but the revelation of the mind of God. This was the difference between the prophets of the Lord and the false prophets. The prophets of the Lord did not speak nor do anything of their own mind. The prophets who wrote the Scripture only wrote what was the mind of God. This important truth of the divine origin of the scriptures is to be known and owned by all who will give heed to the sure word of prophecy.” (from Matthew Henry’s Bible commentary)
Okay, and who is Matthew Henry, and what authority does he have? His interpretation of this passage sure doesn’t make sense to me in light of the whole passage, which claims a prophetic voice for the author and exhorts the reader to be attentive to it. Yes, all Scripture is of divine origin, and according to St. Peter its interpretation is not the prerogative of the individual believer: “there is no prophecy of Scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation.” Not personal authorship, or personal authorial opinion, but personal interpretation. Matthew Henry was a Protestant minister in 17th century England. Why again would I pay any attention to his personal interpretation of this passage?
Scott,
“Likewise, in Acts 8, the Ethiopian eunuch does not try to interpret Scripture for himself, but asks Philip (an Apostle sent out with authority from the Lord Jesus) “How can I understand unless someone instructs me?”
Philip was an evangelist who was asked by the Ethiopian for instruction. There is nothing wrong with seeking and receiving instruction from others. But we should always do as the Berean believers did, that is to search the scriptures daily to see if what we have heard is true. (see Acts 17:11) Paul commended the Berean believers for doing that.
And who were the Bereans, and why was this notable? They were the Jews in the Berean synagogue, and are being contrasted with the Jews of Thessalonica who a mere 6 verses earlier are described violently running Paul and Silas out of town because of their preaching from the Old Testament. The writer of Acts commends them not for their individual interpretations, but for listening to Paul fairly as he preached from the Scriptures (they were more fair-minded/noble/receptive, depending on your translation). Instead of violently ejecting him from the synagogue, they looked at the Scriptures to see if the things he said were in there. So this passage does not do what you want it to do, either. By all means, if someone quotes Scripture at you, check to see if they quote it accurately. That is much different from interpreting it privately. Private interpretation still falls under 2 Peter’s condemnation.
Scott,
“Henry was a Protestant minister in 17th century England. Why again would I pay any attention to his personal interpretation of this passage?”
Look at the 2 Peter at the first verse in chapter one. Who is the epistle addressed to? When Peter wrote this epistle, he addressed it “to those who have been given a faith like ours”
2 Peter 1:1
Check 1 Peter. Who was it address to? “to those who live as strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, to men chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, consecrated by the Spirit to a life of obedience to Jesus Christ and purification with his blood.” 1 Peter 1: 1,2
The second epistle was addressed to believers in general and the first to believers in certain locations. But they were addressed to ordinary believers.
Consider again the two verses:
“First you must understand this: there is no prophecy contained in Scripture which is a personal interpretation. Prophecy has never been put forward by man’s willing it. It is rather that men impelled by the Holy Spirit have spoken under God’s influence.” 2 Peter ch1 vs20, 21
If these two verses are looked at together, it might be easier to understand. First the apostle is saying no prophecy (teaching) in Scripture is the personal opinion of the writer; then he clarifies this by saying the writer was impelled by the Holy Spirit to speak what he spoke. It was not his own ideas. That is what I believe these two verses are saying. Because these writings were inspired, the prophet could not use his own interpretation.
This idea is also shown in another place. The apostle says to Timothy: “Likewise, from infancy you have known the sacred Scriptures, the source of the wisdom which through faith in Jesus Christ leads to salvation.” 2 Timothy ch3 vs15 So Timothy knew from sacred scriptures the way of salvation. It does not say he needed to have scripture interpreted to him. He himself could read scripture and know.
The apostle John says in 1 John concerning the spirit of truth and the spirit of deception:
“We belong to God and anyone who has knowledge of God gives us a hearing,
while anyone who is not of God refuses to hear us.
Thus do we distinguish the spirit of truth from the spirit of deception.” 1 John 4:6
In these verses we have a clear teaching that those who listen to the apostles have the spirit of truth. Where are the apostles? In the Holy Scripture. That is what we are to listen to. The point here is the primary communication from God is in the apostolic teaching or written scripture. The apostle says anyone who has knowledge of God gives us a hearing (listens and in our case, reads what the apostles and prophets have written). The scriptures are directed at individuals, not to some select individual or group to interpret for us. If that was the case, the apostle John would have said so.
Jane,
If you’re still there, I read 2 Maccabees chap.7 last night. I could not see anything that specifically ties that chapter to Hebrews ch11 vs 35. Hebrews chapter 11 is recounting the faith of Old Testament believers. Verse 35 seems to be just part of that. I’m not sure why someone said it lends any support to the claim that 2 Maccabees is scripture.
Scott,
You did ask some pretty weighty questions which I never answered. One was
“where was it (the church) for the 1500 years preceding them(Reformation christians0? Had God abandoned his Church to error for over a millennium? You do know that James tells us (in James 2:14-26) that justification is NOT by faith alone, right?
In fact, God had not abondoned his people. An example is Saint Patrick. Patrick was kidnapped by pirates and through that experience was converted to Christ. He travelled to Hibernia (Ireland) around 400 A.D. where he shared his simple faith in Christ. He was not a Roman Catholic because Romanism had not gone to Ireland until around 1100A.D.
Patrick very bravely confronted the Druid priests headquarters. Many formerly pagan people on Ireland were converted through Christ and they built schools. Patrick obtained permission from the King to go about Ireland preaching the gospel so that people could be converted by faith; he did not seek to have the King create a state religion as Constantine had done in the Roman Empire. He knew that would create a false church of pagans. He wished to teach the true gosple so that people were genuine believers in Christ for their salvation. About 400 years later, the Vikings invaded Ireland and killed as many of the christians as they could find.
Several centuries later, Rome sent a monk to Ireland to establish monasteries and bring Ireland under the control of the Roman Church. If you wish to read about Saint Patrick, I suggest Google. Words such as Saint Patrick history or Saint Patrick in Ireland, Saint Patrick and the Bible, etc. You may get more than one view. You can also find Saint Patrick’s confession of his faith. He was a simple believer who believed in salvation by faith.
Wayne,
I’m sorry I haven’t had time to reply to your postings yet, you’ve caught me in a very busy week. This on Saint Patrick, however, is ridiculous. St. Patrick went to Britain as the assistant to a Catholic Bishop sent there by the Pope himself. He later became the Catholic Bishop of Ireland, and in his own writings talks about having ordained priests and excommunicated heretics. “Romanism” (that’s an insulting term, by the way) had been in the British isle since the 4th century at the latest, although at that time in history the Church was undivided, and he is venerated as a saint in both the Catholic and Orthodox Church.
The only Churches at this time in history were the Catholic Church and heretical churches like the Pelagians, Arians and so on. Saint Patrick returned to Ireland as a Bishop in the Catholic Church. (Your whole post rings of classic anti-Catholic literature like Boettner’s, which are notoriously loose with historical fact when it serves the purpose of bashing the Christ’s Church. Whatever Protestant website or book you got that from: if it says that Catholics believe in salvation by works or worship Mary, throw it out. It’s full of lies.)
Also, historical inaccuracy aside, this doesn’t answer the question I asked. If the great doctrine of sola scriptura was discovered by the sixteenth century reformers (as you claim) after having been completely unknown up till then (as is clear if you actually read early Christian literature), where was the Church for all of that time preceding the Reformation? Had Christ abandoned his Church to error for most of her life? And we all believe in salvation by faith, but not “faith alone,” as is clear in James 2:14-26.
Scott,
As to where the church was before the Reformation, to be honest with you I cannot give you an adequate answer that will satisfy you. Firstly I don’t claim to have any significant knowledge of church history. Secondly, I have heard there were groups of Bible believers in northern Italy and France prior to the 16th century Reformation (such as the Waldenses and Albegensians). Probably not spelled correctly. There may have been individual believers down through the centuries here and there who believed the same basic doctrines which the apostles taught, but I have no way of knowing. If you really want to know more about that subject, you may be able to find out by searching out church history books, but such books may be difficult to find. What I think is more important is what the apostles actually taught as recorded in Scripture.
As for your contention that James taught salvation by faith plus works, I believe that is incorrect. What James is talking about in that chapter is true faith will have evidence of works. Works do not save a person in any way, shape or form. But genuine faith will result in works.
If one examines Romans chapters 3, 4, and 5, he will find that salvation is by faith alone. The apostle Paul gives Abraham as an example.
“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans ch4 vs 4, 5.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians ch2 vs8, 9
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Galatians ch2 vs16
James must be interpreted in a way which is consistent with what the apostle Paul taught in various verses Romans and Galatians simply because God does not contradict himself. He does not teach that salvation is by faith in part of the Bible and then teach that salvation is by works in another part of the Bible. The only way to interpret James correctly is to understand that salvation is by faith but that genuine faith will produce good works. Otherwise you end up with one passage contradicting other passages.
I will let Scott respond to the majority of your points but one stuck out and I wanted to comment on it. You said, “I have heard there were groups of Bible believers…(such as the Waldenses and Albegensians).” I’m sure you’re aware that both of these groups were deemed heretical by the church for various reasons. But since you reference them as “Bible believers”, it makes me wonder if you are a sort of Landmark Baptist who traces back a “remnant” of the “true church” through various so-called heretical groups. If this is the case, so be it, I think there is a vast amount of historical argument to be made against such a notion, but more importantly, it brings up a question that isn’t directly related to Sola Scriptura, but sort of. It has been in my mind for some time: “What is heresy (and conversely orthodoxy) and more importantly, who says?”
Caleb, that’s too much fun to leave it in the comments here. Please investigate that question as a new blog post.
Jane/Philangelus
Wayne, how about this one:
Corinthians 13:2 if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
Faith must express itself through love. You’re right that we need to synthesize the various teachings about faith in order to obtain a full view. But the James passages are not alone in their emphasis that living faith expresses itself in works. Jesus Himself said “If you love me, do what I command.” Jesus’ description of the sheep and the goats has the divisions according to what they did during their lifetimes, not whether they believed in him. In Revelation, we see the books opened where all the deeds of the saints are recorded.
Precisely because God does not contradict Himself, it’s important to view all the passages about faith and works together. They’re not opposites and they don’t have to be. Faith naturally seeks to express itself in works and humility. Works bolster our faith and the faith of others. This unnatural separation sounds to me like a man arguing that it’s important to inhale but not important to exhale. A living, vibrant faith causes the soul to seek to be Christ-like, and Christ expressed His Infinite Love for us in a redeeming work that saved us all.
So it’s absolutely appropriate to say that faith without works is dead — and works without faith are also dead. Because without love, both are nothing.
So, Wayne, with regard to the doctrines which you claim the Apostles taught, but which you admit were largely unknown before the Reformation: don’t you think it’s a bit arrogant now, in 2010 (or even in 1517), to claim to know what the words of the New Testament mean BETTER than those who were alive when they were written? What makes you think that you, reading a second- or third-hand translation of the New Testament, understand it better than those who literally learned at the Apostles’ feet? We have their writings starting from the 90s A.D. (when the Apostle John was almost certainly still alive), and what they teach is Catholic doctrines.
Folks,
I sense the drift of this discussion indicates there is not going to be anything constructive achieved here and we are not going to reach any king of agreement. Therefore I will consider withdrawing.
Caleb, You might want to think twice about saying the church has been or is infallible. People who reject sola scriptura and cling to decrees of fallible men such as church councils may have far less basis for claiming they have the truth. Since the scriptures are written by men inspired by God, at least there is a basis for sola scriptura. What basis is there for accepting the claims of church councils as being infallible? History proves even they have disagreed among themselves. Jesus and the apostles warned about accepting tradition (which is contrary to what Jesus and the apostles taught) and rejecting God’s Word. The choice is yours.
philangelus, You said “This unnatural separation sounds to me like a man arguing that it’s important to inhale but not important to exhale”
Your arguement is with the apostle Paul who wrote his epistle to the Romans under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit about justification by faith and not by works. (Romans chapters 3,4,5) If he separated the two, there must be a reason. Might be worth investigating.
Scott, thanks for the chat but I don’t see anything in your comments that gives me any hope you are willing to consider anything I say from Scripture. You cling to the belief that only the RCC has the infallible interpretation and that nobody else has any intellect or right to interpret and understand what the Bible says. Regardless of what verses I have put forward, you dismiss them out of hand, which is what you seemed to say earlier you would do. With that view, I don’t think there is any hope that we are going to achieve anything by continuing this discussion.
Wayne,
I’m sorry to hear that, but I understand. These discussions are time-consuming and can be frustrating when we feel that we’re talking past each other. I’ll just say in response, you’ve misunderstood my arguments here. Yes, I do consider the Catholic Church to be the infallible interpreter of Scripture provided by Christ through the Holy Spirit to be our shepherd in the faith. As I said before, I accept all of the Scripture you’ve quoted as inspired and inerrant, but I don’t accept your interpretation of it to be. My underlying question for you throughout this exchange has been why you think you are authorized to interpret Scripture for yourself in the first place, and by extension, why you think the Reformers were. I apologize if I haven’t been clear with this. My last comment began to dig specifically into the problem, and into the reason why I don’t think you or the Reformers are correct in your interpretation of Scripture: that is, from the late 1st century, the immediate successors of the Apostles were already teaching Catholic doctrines. Not only were they in much closer temporal and cultural proximity to the writings, many of these authors learned the faith first hand from the Apostles themselves, or from those who did. They have much greater credibility in interpreting writings originally written to them, in their cultural context, and often further explained in person by the authors than do the revisionists of the 16th (or 21st) century. If your interpretation of Scripture contradicts the teachings of the Early Church Fathers, it is infinitely more probable that you are misinterpreting it than it is that they were.
You seem to enjoy reading, but don’t appear to have interacted with the early Church writings very much. I hope you will consider this recommendation: “Beginning to Read the Fathers” by Boniface Ramsey. It’s a very approachable and inexpensive paperback that introduces the writings and teachings of the early Church. If you think it is important to maintain the doctrines taught by the Apostles, you owe it to yourself to be familiar with what their disciples taught and believed, and what the early Church life and faith looked like.
God bless, Wayne. I’ll be praying for you.
Caleb:
All in all, I have increasingly come to view Sola Scriptura as one of the many man-made philosophical tenets that is too absolute to be practically tenable. It leaves many loose ends that have to be accounted for and the ways in which this accounting is gone about are unsatisfactory for me.
I re-read the Regensburg address tonight, and was reminded of you where Benedict touches on Sola Scriptura in the question of the right use of reason in addressing theology:
“The thesis that the critically purified Greek heritage forms an integral part of Christian faith has been countered by the call for a dehellenization of Christianity – a call which has more and more dominated theological discussions since the beginning of the modern age. Viewed more closely, three stages can be observed in the programme of dehellenization: although interconnected, they are clearly distinct from one another in their motivations and objectives.
“Dehellenization first emerges in connection with the fundamental postulates of the Reformation in the sixteenth century. Looking at the tradition of scholastic theology, the Reformers thought they were confronted with a faith system totally conditioned by philosophy, that is to say an articulation of the faith based on an alien system of thought. As a result, faith no longer appeared as a living historical Word but as one element of an overarching philosophical system. The principle of “sola Scriptura,” on the other hand, sought faith in its pure, primordial form, as originally found in the biblical Word. Metaphysics appeared as a premise derived from another source, from which faith had to be liberated in order to become once more fully itself.
…
“Before I draw the conclusions to which all this has been leading, I must briefly refer to the third stage of dehellenization, which is now in progress. In the light of our experience with cultural pluralism, it is often said nowadays that the synthesis with Hellenism achieved in the early Church was a preliminary inculturation which ought not to be binding on other cultures. The latter are said to have the right to return to the simple message of the New Testament prior to that inculturation, in order to inculturate it anew in their own particular milieux. This thesis is not only false; it is coarse and lacking in precision. The New Testament was written in Greek and bears the imprint of the Greek spirit, which had already come to maturity as the Old Testament developed.”
If this resonates with you, have a look at the whole address, which I’ve been seeing pointed to again and again as already one of the most significant speeches of the century.
[...] Caleb gives a good (if somewhat long) reflection on why he doesn’t abide by Sola Scriptura. His reasons are similar to mine, I must admit. To my mind the whole system just fails to be supportive and leaves one in the giant quagmire of denominationalism that Protestants are so fond of. [...]